1. First and foremost, on Polygamy
The Mormon Explanation:
In the Old Testament Era, Jews were polygamous because God commanded that they multiply and replenish the earth. Genesis 1:28 As the Lord commanded his chosen people then, so was it His command for the chosen people (Mormons) of modern times to take multiple wives and populate the earth with more Mormons. It is impossible for one woman to produce the amount of children God requires of each family. However, the 13 Articles of Faith states that all Mormons must obey the laws of the land.
I guess this Mormon didn’t get the memo.
Mormons say they don’t believe in Polygamy… This is seemingly contradictory, however their justification is something more complicated and esoteric than you might expect from ‘Christian’ doctrine.
Latter Day Saints in a nutshell, according to good ole Joe Smith:
In the first heavenly cycle, there are Gods and Goddesses in the Celestial World that are given a space to create their own Universe. One God, or Heavenly Father, is assigned this space along with multiple Heavenly Mothers. Earth is then created as told in the story of Genesis, yet altered according to the 19th century ideals of Joseph Smith. For every person that is born, there is a Heavenly Mother who has given birth to the soul, and an earthly mother that then gives birth to the body. Basically, Heavenly Father is in his space, Master of All, getting it on with all his Heavenly Whores. Thus, on a celestial plane polygamy is necessary to populate the souls of the world. Though man should live in the image of God, obeying modern law and the ever-evolving cultural condition has purged Polygamy from Mormonism for its own growth and reputation. (Kind of like how Catholics evolved from the torture and killing of men with opposing scientific views. That sort of thing.)
Mormonism reveals that ‘As man is, God once was; as God is, man may be.’
Put more simply… If God can bang many Goddesses, then why the hell can’t we?
2. ‘We only have sex for sake of procreation, not for pleasure’
Truth: Salt Lake City is the sodomy capital of the world. Do Mormons actually believe that butt sex is how babies are made? I’ve toured through this town several times and have never been denied the booty.
I actually conducted a double-blind study over several years with Mormon and Placebo (Non-Mormon) females between the ages of 17 and 19 and published my results at Stanford Research. In addition, this exhaustive research set the stage for an unprecedented scientific approach increasing Mormon sodomy by 15% in 2008.
Actually, believe it or not, Mormon and Human women alike have a unique organ designed specifically for sexual arousal, which is completely nonexistent in other animals. It’s called a clitoris. The natural question arises.
What is God’s intention for the clitoris if it serves no other function than sexual pleasure?
In Orwell’s 1984, the English Socialists described sex as Service to the Party. Is this what Mormons are getting at?
3. ‘We are so holy that we avoid the appearance of Evil’
The Old Joke Goes….
How do you keep a Mormon from drinking all the beer at your party? Invite another Mormon.
Enough Said.
And if this isn’t the appearance of Evil, I don’t know what is.
4. ‘We love our fellow man and don’t judge our neighbor’
Truth: Mormons believe that if their neighbors aren’t wearing white shirts and stupid ties, or pioneer hairdos with floral moo-moos (Apologies for the rhyming), then they’re not to be trusted.
They teach their children the value of prejudice as a way of protecting themselves from sinners.
Why judge a book by its cover?
Prejudice is wrong, and that’s the trueff!
5. ‘We aren’t racist!’ – not that there’s anything wrong with some healthy racism
Truth: Mormons actually equate dark skin with wickedness – ‘A curse from God’. They believe that God marked certain people with dark skin so that Blessed Whitey could easily stay clear of possible interbreeding.
To make this very clear
Acceptable
Unacceptable
For more in-depth articles you can rely on, visit www.psychographicmedia.com daily.
Goldstein reporting from Salt Lake City
{ 198 comments… read them below or add one }
your first statement is wrong, we announced as a church that we have stopped practicing polygamy, pardon me if i apper arrogant, i don’t mean to be, see I’m LDS and all im doing is trying to defend myself. You and many others say lds are arrogant…. prideful…. you fU&#ing hate us. but know this. were not all the same i am living proof. Sure salt lake has their head up there ass, but so do you, i mean come one, you spent how much time? making this article so you could accomplish nothing but dissing on the thing i and many others i bet you could come to love believe in. your the twisted one not me. what did we do to you. every religion has douches and asses and whores, i and many other mormons, aren’t judgemental, arrongant, ect. you dis on our garments and think their rediculous, look at the fucking muslims. . . . all you can see is their eyes dude, and really your dissing on us for wearing short sleeves under out normal clothes. tell me what have you accomplished with all this negativity, and what productive things has that done. you should listen to 1 lds talk with an open heart and mind before you judge us, and the dark skin quote you dissed on, us mormons realized it was fucked up and announced we don’t agree with such, but we refuse to further alter our doctrine. please stop trying to ruin my church your waisting my time, the good side always wins, and there will be war in the future you will see, and you will regret the things you said against my church. you discriminatory judgemental bastard. Get a life. ….. or at least go judge the satanists or something sincierely annonimous dissapointed kid that is offended by your efforts against my beleifs. your an ass. . . .
tahts not waht i herd, mormon kid.
I’m sorry skepticat, but those images are not the same. I don’t know if you made that video or someone else, but it does not prove or disprove anything.
This article is full of lies. Whoever wrote this should give the missionaries a chance to explain. Let them in, tell them that this is what you think, and they will tell you what the Latter-Day Saints really believe.
These “revealed myths” are false. I would advise anyone who visits this website to consider going somewhere else.
Oh and Mormon Kid, you should think about not swearing while defending the Church.
Way to go mormon kid! EVERYTHING that is on this stupid page is WRONG these people obiously dont understand our true meaning, or they just are to stubborn to understand. fellow mormon brothers and sisters, if you see crap like this on the web, show them educate them that this is WRONG and it took the mormon kid for me to say this. iam a mormon and proud to be one. this is absurd. people, go talk to a reall mormon not one who inactive and makes silly rumors about us. so please, before i go insane, do something better with your time instead of blabbin out stuff like this.
I dOn’t see why you people keep spreading rumors about our church. We have the right to beleive what we want to believe, and you have the right to believe what you want to believe. Why can’t you just stay out of our business. You don’t see us spreading rumors. If you truly insist on talking about us, focus on the positive. For the most part (there are a few exceptions to most things) we are hard working and are not alcholics. Maybe some inactive member is, but I have yet to meet an alchoholic Member if the church of Jesus Christ of latter-day saints.
By the way, if you truly want to understand us, go to church with one of us, visit our homes, or ask us with an open mind.
Many people throughout history have created in their minds a disconnect between emotions and words, to some this is called Spiritual enlightenment. Joseph Smith did this so did Jesus, it gives that person in that moment the ability to know what god is. Therefore they are able to show people that they have been touched by god. They are able to do this because they can move their mind at a pace so fast they can believe all possible realities simultaneously. This ability gives them the power to create a new religion if they so desire. In the modern world when people try to do this they form what we call a cult and the idea cannot gain enough traction so this is why most cults end in mass suicide. For the record I am an atheist but I could be a christian a mormon a bhuddist or even a jew all at the same time. I am not mad I am a behavioural scientist.
I forgot to mention that in order to fully understand and successfully argue against my point (and this is addressed to mormon kid and mormon girl) you will need to first free your mind from your religion and need to think in a non linear manner since I already know what you will say if you wish to post a response there are 3 possible things you will write.
1 you will try to convince me that your god is real, we call this thought anger.
2 you will post nothing, we call this thought bafflement, confusion or exacerbation.
3 you will ask me what I mean and try to get me to explain, follow this path and you will come to know what you would call enlightenment. be warned it is a very dangerous path to follow. and you will have to understand it will make you mad and unlock the power of your mind but first you must be prepared to take your own life to protect those around you. from yourself.
Mormon kin and mormon girl, don’t kill yourselves it is stupid. Seek help from professional psychiatrists before you get there.
If any mormon does try to post a response after this. Here is my answer ahead of time.
I aggree with what you say. I understand it and I believe it.
I dissagree with what you say. I understand why feel the need to argue against me, you are afraid that you are wrong, you just don’t realise it.
Finally your words have no effect or power over me.
the mormons are some of the most hated religius people on earth but some ofthere ideals are good but they have goten involved in ileagal things church and state are saposed to be seperat and sections of the lsd church want church and state ti be the same i am not saying all sections of the lsd church are this way but the ones that are need to be brought under control or the wrath of there faith will distory are freedoms and rights if not the united states itself
I see you went for option number 1 then all be it in a subtle way. Am I a prophet?
Clever trick by the way to copy my name you missed out the capital letter.
Kind regards
joe smith
When you read this you will experience the emotion of anger (whether you realise it or not) and you will do 1 of 3 things
1 you will do nothing and post no more (confusion)
2 you will read some words in a book
3 you will go to someone else and ask them how to I am able to do this they will not be able to tell you if they are a mormon and want you to remain a mormon.
I don’t know if this will be the last post on this thread!
BTW note to nobody
religius is actually spelt religious
OKay first of all, i’ve lately been checking out a mormon church. and what mormons are taught…is messed up. constantly being told..and DRILLED into their head that “this church is the one and only true chuch of god” every church meeting i’ve been to, that has been mentioned. in other words, from birth the church brain washes mormons into thinking their way is the RIGHT way. which means mormonism essentailly goes against the word of god himself (though shalt be humble) well being told your religion is the only real religion, is not humble! mormonism truly is a cult, and i just got done dating a mormon girl. such a perfect woman in so many ways, but becuase of her stupid mormon ideals, she was convinced she was ‘not worthy of the holy ghost, and that she had disrespected her bishop’ when in fact she was a perfect human being. this is why mormonism has so many flaws. its ridiculous. at least my opinion, is based off first hand experience. therefore everything ive said, is NOT wrong. its right.
Jay, I don’t think “drilled” is the correct word. We are taught that our church is the only 100% correct church, but then again, many churches teach the same thing, that their church is the only true church.We teach that we hAve agency(free wil), so there is little chance, if any, that we are having propoganda drilled into our minds. If we were, then the people who were were acting against church guidlines. Besides, we also teach that other churches, if not all other churches have some degree of truth in them. I’m sorry if you missunderstood what was being taught when you heard that we are the only true church and thought we were being egomaniacs. With all of this anti-mormon(but please feel free to use our real name, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints) messages going around.
To: Nobody. From: A Latter-Day Saint. In A recent post, you said something along the lines of “Mormon kid and mormon girl, please don’t kill yourselves. Seek professional help.” Am I missing somesthing or are you reffering to the mass suicides some “cults” experience? By the way a cult is defined as any small religious group, so technically most religions could possibly be considered cults if you consider the 13.5 or so million LDS there are cultists.
Also, what Nobody (capital N) said was partially true. When we read this, a computerized assault on our religion, ourbfirst response will naturaly be anger. But if we give into our anger, what sort of example will we set? We must avoid responding in anger and calmly respond that their opinions differ from ours. We know that what we know is true, especially if you have followed Moroni’s advice to pray for knowledge of the truth, just as I have. Also, if a non-Mormon reads this, James 1:5.
P.S. In Hebrews 10:15(I don’t have a Bible handy, so the scripture I’m thinking of may be somewhere else) it says not to fear what man shall do for the Lord thy God is with thee. Something you should think about.
Hi Person
At last a challenge!
I see you went for option number 2 (read some words in a book), then you did something interesting but I am afraid to say predictable; you tried to get me to read some words from your book. The interesting part is that you began to follow option number 3 from February 11ths Post.
In answer to your question “Am I missing something” the answer is: Yes!
The question is can you continue on this path knowing where it will lead you?
What is even more interesting is that there are now only 2 options for Person.
1. Give me some more words (having first suppressed you anger as you did before).
2. Let me have the last word.
I am not a bookmaker but if I were I’d be giving pretty long odds on option number 2.
P.S. No anger here just contentment.
BTW no fear either!
Question to Person
Why do you feel the need to refer to yourself as a saint?
I can call myself a saint, a sinner a god or a devil.
anger again by chance?
Nobody, I called myself a saint because that is the actual name for the “Mormon church”, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day “Saints”. Also, I think I can continue on my path and know where it will take me. I know that my path is definently not an easy one, and that I will probably face more hard times than just this. But I do know that there will be a reward for me, in the end. It’s just like going on a hike: it’s difficult, and sometimes you want to quit, but there will be a reward for your sacrifices.
Person
You know that you are right, this I find interesting because I know that I am both right and wrong at the same time. I am all things including omnipresent. I know where I am going to and it is not the same place as you. It is a bit like a hike and I have stood on the highest place on earth. I didn’t give up either.
(confusion you now feel)
I know you will go to your building at some point you are linear after all aren’t you.
I am giving up on this boring linear debate now to do something more rewarding, I am off to a new universe.
BTW just before I go, I know what (you would use the word who in this context) god is and he doesn’t deserve your worship. Message from Jesus, I’m sorry.
P.S. I told jesus about the world religions and he had trouble understanding the difference between these and the football teams, but then again he was only human (he is dead now). Humans are brilliant aren’t they? Final words to Person don’t let the buggers get you down. Oh and don’t interfere with children either!
James 1:5 – If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
Nobody can give you wisdom my friend.
Hebrewes 13:6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.
What kind of wisdom? I think there is noting that he was (wisdom wise) that is worth giving to me.
Or to almost anyone.
I wonder…. Is this bickering necessary? Why don’t we just sign off and agree not to argue about this anymore?
How is this every going to be the longest running religious thread on the internet if we give up now?
One ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them!
Tolkien (Lord of The Rings)
Religion is the ring, nobody is actually prepared to break the circle and let someone else have the last word.
Alright then. Have any ideas to argue about before I go to bed?
I’m ready to counter any arguments people may have
Please use some creativity with your alias. Hiding behind names like ‘Somebody’ and ‘Person’ is almost as lame as ‘Mormon Kid.’
If you would like me to engage the conversation, please make it more interesting with some kind of comment ownership.
I am very happy you’ve all stumbled upon my article.
My take on religion is this. God is an abstract psychological construct that human species create in their minds, that helps them put in place negative emotions such as guilt and anger.
a belief in god is a primary reinforcer that can form the basis of an operand conditioning model we call religion. The Christian model is a good one since it contains more positive reinforcement than negative reinforcement (there is punishment too). The problem with all operand conditioning is that there is the prospect of maladaptive learning.
Is that enough ownership for you Goldstein.
You’re an atheist, aren’t you, Chris? Ihave absolutely no problem with you being atheist, although I would prefer that you were religous. I don’t really have anything to counter you with because you just stated an honest opinion. I think more people should do that and try to keep this from becoming an arguement.
I’m a psychologist that understands the power of operand conditioning and what it is capable of locking down in the human mind. god is simply a primary reinforcer.
I don’t label myself anything other than a psychologist. I help people who have been damaged by religion to undo the maladaptive learning they suffered at the hands of the church. Once free from anger, guilt and abuse they are able to make up their own minds once again.
What about a bit more ownership in your next comment Person?
Alright. I’ll tell you that I honestly don’t think that anything in my church could count as “maladaptive learning they suffered at the hands of the church.” We teach that families are the basic unit of people in our lives and that we should love our families dearly. We teach people to stay away from addictive and/or harmful substances. We teach people to be nice to others. I don’t think anything we teach causes “anger, guilt and abuse,” and we teach that everyone has agency, or free will, so we’re always able to make up our own minds. And if you think that maybe the church leaders steal tithing money, there is no paid clergery in our church. All the tithing money goes to humanitarian services and the building and maintaining of churches and temples. And as for the ownership of “Person,” I prefer to be cloaked in the mists of mystery and confusion while online. I’ll at least say that I’m a boy. You don’t NEED to know anything else.
Person
I don’t think you actually understand what is meant by the term “maladaptive learning” in the context of the science of psychology. I have met many ex christians who have become very angry atheists, in the psychological context it is the reading and interpreting of the bible through a leader that is maladaptive. To give an example of maladaptive learning in the religious context.
A man or woman finds masturbation to be pleasurable and non disruptive to his or her everyday life. He or she confesses this act to a spiritual leader who informs him or her that it is wrong in the eyes of god. This spiritual leader then provides the person with a reinforcement schedule to help him or her prevent this behaviour.
The example above is maladaptive since the act of masturbation was not causing the person any damage in the first place, they were not viewing any illegal material, and in the context of their relationship they were neither hyper nor hypo sexual, it was not affecting their job and it was kept to the privacy of their own home. All of the previously listed things make the behaviour perfectly acceptable in the society in which we live. Some time later the person leaves the church and this action of repressed normal sexual behaviour comes out in different emotions. Hence the religious conditioning is maladaptive.
Hopefully this helps.
BTW of course religious people do find it difficult to accept that they can do harm when all they mean is good. I have also encountered many people who have supported priests who subsequently were found out to be child abusers and had massive difficulties reconciling their faith with their actions at the time. Some of them even had an inkling of “is this really ok to be that huggy”, at the time the abuser was a priest but they prayed (actually no different to thought) about the abusers calling and that made it OK. This is maladaptive too since the person was repressing natural human scepticism. I could go on with example after example, sufficient to say your previous post indicates anger in your writing style. You will note that there is no anger in mine.
Regards
Chris
BTW Person I do hope you are not too mystified or confused…
I need no mystification or confusion and certainly no mist (or fog) to cloud my identity. You see if you can be an enlightened person without religion your identity can become like your mind, free of fog, mystery or confusion. I think you are very wrapped up in the mystery of faith.
Chris,
You have a lot to say. Do you have your own blog?
I’m really quite surprised you’ve taken such an interest in contributing to my article, which was intended as a light-hearted, satire.
It’s hysterical that this piece has attracted LDS, and it’s of interest how they arrived at my article. ‘Mormon Myths’ or ‘Mormonism Revealed’ typed into Google, maybe? Possibly a campaign launched by the church to counter defamatory blogs, however, this seems unlikely as most of these Pro-Mormon ‘arguments’ are written without a hint of grammar or intelligence.
Due to the amount of attention this blog has received, I may offer a reprise into the more esoteric nature of the LDS framework; something a bit less tongue-in-cheek. This may do my readers a favor. It seems my humor can’t penetrate the armor of despair and insecurity Mormons live with.
By the way, I’m sure you’re aware that ‘Mormon’ is a word LDS find offensive, which is why I use it. I have a difficult time understanding why people take their belief systems so seriously. I know how this happens, but why escapes me. Why live with so much insecurity? The act of being offended presupposes inferiority, the absence of self-reflection, and plain ignorance in general. Only those that can laugh at themselves, have a chance at happiness.
Chris,
Alright, so maybe there is some anger in my righting. Naturally, I feel some anger, and if you were in my shoes you probably would, too. I’m trying to supress it as much as possible, and I’m not showing it anywhere near as much as mormon kid did. I know that some, if not many, religious leaders were hypocrites, and I know that there are WAY too many interpretations of the Bible. However, this does not mean that all religious leaders are hypocrites. There can be instances where religion isn’t maladaptive, and there can be instances where it is.
Goldstein,
I appreciate that this is merely light-hearted satire. I am relieved that this isn’t some serious thing to “make people more aware of the growing danger of those (insert insult here) Mormons.”
Before you go and make generalities about us being unintellegent and insecure, remember that there are always some good apples and some bad apples. There are some of us who lose language skills and self-control when we are angry and those of us who stay composed and good-mannered. There are those of us who take the term “Mormon” offensive and those of us who don’t. I don’t take it offensively, although I preffer to be called LDS, not Mormon.
Also, I don’t really see how we are percieved as not lighthearted. I know that personally, I am one of the few people in my school that can laugh at themselves and truly mean it (and yes, I am young enough to still be going to a school). I openly call myself weird and not normal. I also enjoy life alot. After all, we believe that we are going to a much better place after this life. Why wouldn’t you be happy noing this, without some sort of mental disease? To wrap things up, there are always different kinds of people in every group, so generalities aren’t always true.
Also, to satisfy you’re need for ownership of articels, my name is Jacob Davis and I am young enough so that I don’t yet have a full-time job and I still go to a school of some sort.
Jacob, just curious… How did you find this article?
You know, I’ve been thinking…. If it weren’t for religion, which I am for, we wouldn’t have alot of our ethical opinions. For example, gay marriges. If you through all religion out of the picture, the only thing against them is that it would defeat the purpose of reproduction. There wouldn’t really be the controversy over evolution and Intelligent creation(Personally, I think that it is somewhere in between, given the enormous complexity of life(Try to imagine a nuclear bomb exploding and finding a piano in the remains), and the evidence in fossils). There wouldn’t be as much of an emphasis on morals. Just something to think about.
BTW, I refuse to take sides in this arguement, which by the way seems to be getting much more civilized now that mormon kid, another mormon kid, and mormon girl are out of the picture, no offense to any of them.
I heard about all the untrue things that people say about my church, and so I Googled ‘Mormon myths.’ It isn’t “a campaign launched by the church to counter defamatory blogs,” to let you know. Just some curiosity.
Jacob
You sound a lot like I was when I was your age. When I was 15 I had a deep sense of Christian spirituality and was actually a member of the order of St Francis. What I can say is that if I were in your shoes I would have felt no anger in reading what I have written to you. I can say this because I have been in similar shoes to you in the past.
Now for the interesting part though what was actually happening to me at the time when I was 15 was physical abuse from a priest. I suppressed my anxiety in those moments of abuse, I even tried to make sure that others were protected from him even if this meant it happened to me more. This man abused me for 5 years before I left the church full of anger towards all Christian religions. I haven’t talked about religion with anyone for 15 years because I wouldn’t do it until I could do so without anger. Now I can and the impressive side effect is that I can now talk about anything I choose without anger and truly understand that the only person who makes us angry is ourselves (our thoughts).
Jacob, nobody “makes you angry”.
BTW Jacob, you actually sound like an all right person, you might not be a LDS for the rest of your life though and, you know what, if you are no longer a LDS one day that will be all right too. Don’t take LSD though!
Goldstein
Maybe I should think about setting up a blog, never really thought of myself as much of a creative writer. Me writing a blog would probably turn into a bit of an ultimate distraction. Right now I am supposed to be working on a couple of academic papers.
Maybe I could e-mail you about the “less tongue-in-cheek” idea and we could set something up together? I think there is an interesting project in here somewhere!
Jacob, do you see any facts that are false within this article?
If so, please give me your argument.
Chris,
I am always open. If anything, it’ll inspire me to begin this next piece.
Writing isn’t a distraction, it is actually the opposite. If you didn’t have the time, you wouldn’t be contributing here.
Chris,
When I say it makes me angry, I meant the blog, not the posts.
Goldstein,
Untrue things in this blog:
We publically stated that we no longer practised polygamy over a hundred years ago. We only believe in one Heavenly Mother, although I think, but am unsure about it, that one of the branch offs of the church believes in multiple Heavenly Mothers. You said that “Salt Lake City is the sodomy capital of the world.” I doubt this is true, but then again there is a large portion of the population that is not LDS/Mormon. I just know that no true LDS/Mormon person would do that.
More Untrue Things:
You said “Mormons believe that if their neighbors aren’t wearing white shirts and stupid ties, or pioneer hairdos with floral moo-moos (Apologies for the rhyming), then they’re not to be trusted.” This is about as untrue as the myth that we have horns (Some people actually do believe that we have horns). Judging someone by their clothes or hair is just plain wrong. Of all the people in my church I have met, I have pretty much figured that they only wear shirts and ties when they are going somewhere special, like church or a fancy dinner. You said that “Mormons actually equate dark skin with wickedness – ‘A curse from God’. They believe that God marked certain people with dark skin so that Blessed Whitey could easily stay clear of possible interbreeding.” This is only partly true. We believe that some peoples throughout history were cursed with a skin of darkness, but I don’t think that anyone on this Earth that has dark skin is still accountable for the sins of their ancestors. Plus, I don’t think that everyone who had dark skin got it as a curse, but then again I don’t represent the official view of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, so that might not be 100% true.
I think that’s about it.
You know, looking back, this is getting to be a pretty long series of responses.
It says your an Award Winning X-Mormon, currently Jewish Sociologist and Researcher. Can you clue me in on why you left the church?
Jacob
Nice try, some of your responses to my posts contained anger, you admitted as much; and yes I do know that it is a long series of responses. As a side issue you seem to have come full circle back to where you started before you responded to Nobody’s post (dated 11th February). I also note that the words “nobody can give you wisdom my friend” can be taken two ways, you quite literally took it personally. Words can convey knowledge, the wisdom is in the things we don’t say.
Goldstein
e-mail me and we can test a construct. I think you might already have an inkling as to what my construct has been with regard to these posts. I came up with the idea for the test on the 10th of February 2010. 10-20 minutes of writing a day will be interesting me thinks.
Chris,
OH! I thought he meant Nobody, as in the person who was posting those choices and talking about psychology! I didn’t think he meant that nobody, as in the pronoun, no person, could give you knowledge! Oops! To correct the misunderstanding, I was talking about the wisdom Nobody, the person, could give me. He could probably give me knowledge, no doubt, but wisdom, not so sure. Also, going back to where you said that no one can “make you angry,” you’re right. I probably made a poor choice of words. I should have said that it prompted me to feel angry, or it made it easier for me to be angry.
Also, I hope I’m LDS my entire life. Even if this is not the true, restored church, it still puts high standards in its members (At least a lot of them). I hope people will know me as someone with a good work ethic, someone who can be relied upon. One day, when I get married, I hope I’m still LDS so I can marry someone who’s LDS. That way, I can be 99.9%, if not 100%, certain that my wife will be someone who has good values, someone who will be faithful. You may think it’s corny or cheesy, but I hope it comes to pass.
The Pearl is a book that, in my eyes, completely dismembers the claim to Christianity that Mormons make.
Aside from going in radical directions (Man can ascend to Godhood, etc) there is no valid proof that these are indeed legitimate documents. Most of the credibility falls the second you start scrutinizing Joseph Smith..
Regarding polygamy, while it is now culturally taboo it was indeed practiced by Hebrews and gentiles alike (lol) back in the day. Marriages were also pre-arranged and came at exceptionally young ages.. Am I saying it’s “right”? No, not necessarily.
If you read the Canon it’s fairly evident that a single man and single woman were the preferred choice God had in mind for humanity in the long run- but polygamy was in place for reproduction and safety purposes. It helped women who (in the Hebrew culture) had no real means to provide for themselves not starve and die… Solomon and David for example had many concubines and women.
Mormons are generally good people with great ties to the community and family.
My only beef with them lies within their teachings and what their “scriptures” actually SAY.. In many ways they are untrue to their faith with such consistent back pedaling and damage control.
It isn’t unlike Scientology. Most members have merely a vague and passing idea of what L. Ron Hubbard said in many of his books and teachings (dianetics and so forth). But if you read some of the extended materials that are not mainstream within the Scientology community- it’s pretty far out there. It is still accepted as canon though, as it was penned by Hubbard in direct relation to his religion.
One example that comes off the top of my head were bombs that would ascend into the atmosphere of the planet and literally scream (with a voice). Most scientologists would categorically deny this is written anywhere in their religious “texts”- but it is.
The same is true with all religions though. I mean most Christians (Protestant or Catholic) are not necessarily well versed with their religion. Or atleast as much as I feel they should be..
Also, take note that I am not saying my religion is “perfect”- I personally believe that the worst kind of people are in fact Christians in quite a few ways. The problem is people really..
Apologist, God is just a construct. The label doesn’t matter!
Jacob
I know how you feel, I have been there too. You will grow up and may stay the same or you may evolve (expand your conciseness or find enlightenment or whatever you want to call it). I have but you will never change so fundamentally that you cease to be a good person. When I was your age I would have made the same mistake about “nobody and wisdom” that you did. Remember, the wisdom bit is in our heads, it is what we don’t say as opposed to what we do say. Where you are now in your life you would call this prayer. I reckon your prayers are pretty selfless, only a guess BTW (I can’t know what is in your prayers). I hope you read books other than Religious ones, “Moby Dick” might be worthwhile for you at some point.
Jacob/Apologist
Before I get a religious quote from you, I am much older than you and lets just say I have read the Bible more times than I can actually remember, to the point where when someone says Acts 13:38, I know they are talking about forgiveness without the need to actually go and look it up. Your point:-
“I personally believe that the worst kind of people are in fact Christians in quite a few ways. The problem is people really..”
Shows wisdom beyond your years. A word from the wise, be careful who you talk about religion with, some people are not what they appear on first impressions and a faith as strong as yours can allow a certain sort of person to work the levers of your mind. I do not expect you to believe me, many years ago someone said the same to me and I didn’t believe them either. I’d love to go back in time and tell myself to listen to that person but I cannot, Take care now.
Chris
I do not believe the concept of God to be man-made. I will have to disagree there my friend. I see far too much complexity and detail in this universe for it to be borne from the entropic whims of chance. I do thank you for your kind words though, you seem to have walked a great deal in life and have acquired much wisdom.
You’re right about my age, I’m quite young. Only 19 to be precise.. Often that’s a source of embarrassment in discussions. To be young (is usually) to be ignorant and naive. My generation is certainly proving that stereotype well..
The concept of god is not man made it is just a construct. Human beings are not the only species on this planet to have constructs. Another example of a construct is love, in my marriage this construct contains sexual attraction, trust and a sense of caring. These constructs or higher order emotions require a self awareness that my dog for instance does not have. I love my dog (trust and care for him, fancying him would make me abnormal and get my arse kicked by my wife), but he does not love me he just trusts me he does not even know what he is. It might be that this ability has been put in our minds by a supernatural being, or it might be something else. All I know is that when I discuss my personal circumstances and emotions with my local christians they say “I see a lot of God working through you”, I tend in these moments to keep off the subject of what god is because I don’t want to hurt them, I tend to have the conversation about the construct the once and leave it at that, when I was a christian I did the same, tell people about Jesus once and leave it at that.
Apologist mormon kid and mormon girl are ignorant you are not ignorant. If your attitude on this blog carries through to you attitudes towards the environment and conservation of the planet, then there is definitely hope for the future!
Well, I certainly believe that we are to be good stewards of this earth. There are some issues I sympathize with environmentalism on, and others I find are unsubstantiated. Needless waste and rampant pollution is… Base. There is no call for such wasteful behavior..
However,
“Man-made global warming” I think is bunk. This is not to say that our planet is not going through another phase (and therefore temperature is, apparently from the latest I’ve read from NASA, cooling). I’m just not entirely convinced Man is the sole culprit…
For instance the earth itself (through some sort of geo-thermal mechanisms) could be responsible, just as easily as it could be the sun itself.. If memory serves Sol is going through a new cycle, which will fully kick in within the next few years..
In regards to “Fad-Science” I take a back seat. We will let time and further research, outside of the intense pro-excitement climate of politics and media be the judge.
But yes. We have only one planet that tailors to our exact needs for survival. To destroy it would mean certain doom..
Apologist,
I’m sure you’ve seen this, if not, spend some time here.
http://www.petitionproject.org/
This could become alot more interesting. With two pro-religion people in this discussion, things are sure to take some new turns. For the better or worse, I have no way to know for sure. I just know that things probably will change.
Apologist,
You said “I see far too much complexity and detail in this universe for it to be borne from the entropic whims of chance.” Joe (who should probably post again) said “Try to imagine a nuclear bomb exploding and finding a piano in the remains.” I agree with them. The universe is far to complex to just be some freak accident. There is too much structure, too many “lucky accidents” that allow life to exist. As Chris said, I may not be LDS all my life (but I hope I will be), but I’m as sure as I am capable of being that there is some sort of higher intelligence out there.
Also, it’s interesting that both of the pro-religion people are relatively young, and both are most likely unstereotypical youngish people. Might it be that this generation is taking a bright step forwards?
Chris,
Sorry if this sounds rude, but to me it appears that your writting is degenerating a little (a few misplaced commas, one or two misspelled words). I’d prefer if this conversation didn’t degenerate into the kind of talk mormon kid used (no offense inteded towards him).
On the subject of “global warming,”
I agree with Apologist. I doubt that mankind is solely responsible for climate change. He definantly has a role, but isn’t the only variable in the equation. Also, I live down South, and I’ve noticed that it’s been getting colder and colder recently around here (not because of winter. This winter feels colder than most).
Hi All
Sorry about the grammatical errors (I’m British) and a scientist to boot. The reason I started posting in the first place is that I have observed many scientists who are also staunch atheists putting arguments forwards, in recent years in an almost religious manner. Richard Dawkins is a very good example of this, Al Gore is also pretty good at it too. Many prominent people have jumped on the man made climate change band wagon and seem to have lost sight of what science is all about. As scientists we don’t argue and try to convert people to our way of thinking akin to religion, we don’t make our minds up on what we believe and then try to find evidence to fit it either. We look for evidence, theorise and then experiment and see i this backs up the theory. Unfortunately we are unable to put the planet in a test tube and this is where the problems begin to arise. In this respect climate change has become a religion, people theorising on both sides of the argument and then trying to convert as many people to their way of thinking.
Surely the point is this: the climate of our planet is changing, global resources are being pushed and wildlife is struggling. The question for the younger generation is what are you going to do about it? Nothing or something. Mr Gore seems to think it is OK to preach, whilst using tonnes of carbon making films and flying all over the world. So long as he pays someone else to use less, he thinks his behaviour is just fine. Mr Dawkins seems to think the answer will somehow come to everyone out there, if they just become atheists. Many in Hollywood think these men have a point, I just see them as religious hypocrites. As to what I think, my own theory is that the release of carbon dioxide, carbon particulates and methane play a significant part in climate change. In the late seventies I was also theorising that the release chlorofluorocarbons were playing a significant part in ozone depletion. It turned out that I might have been right. I still don’t know, but you guys will sometime around 2050. I have reduced the amount of carbon I emit into the atmosphere to approximately 7 tonnes per year, I still use shed loads of water (we Brits love our beer just a little too much). These arguments are no where near as simple as religion. For instance I hear all the time from people that we should eat organic, I personally do, but I still point out to them that if everyone in the world did this we would need a few more Earths! Someone even said to me last week “it is environmentally unfriendly of you to have a dog!”, I asked them how many children they had, they replied (proudly), three two lovely girls and a boy, would you like to see a picture! I said no thanks. My Wife and I have no children of our own, I pointed out to him the environmental impact that a extra canine makes, is almost insignificant when compared to that of three children. It is so complex. The fact to remember on this is there is no scientific evidence either way because nobody has experimented, to do so would be very unwise in my opinion. If we want to find out if climate change can be influenced by man here is the hypothesis: Start a project whereby billions of dollars are pumped into increasing the amount of CO2 the USA and Europe emit (put it way beyond current levels, we are talking off the chart type levels BTW). Chart the results over several years and then draw conclusions based on the hypothesis that mankind putting CO2 into the atmosphere effects the climate of the planet. Alternatively significantly reduce global CO2 emissions and do the same. Or ignore it and the debate completely, akin to I really don’t care. Mr Gore thinks it is OK to emit as much as he likes providing he pays someone else to emit less. So far as I am concerned that places him in the I don’t care camp since he isn’t part of either experiment!
BTW I have recently set up my own blog animals behaving
Chris, good job setting up your new blog; write to it a few times a week.
Man-Made Climate Change:
Mr. Gore is far from a scientist. He’s actually a complete fraud that is set to make billions off Global CO2 Taxes and Carbon Credits that are paid directly to the IMF. There is zero conclusive evidence of any positive correlation between atmospheric CO2 and Climate Change. The only correlation is that once the surface of the ocean evaporates, there is consequential increase in CO2, which seems to lag 20 to 30 years after the fact. Plant life flourishes from CO2 increases, and allows for a more comfortable living environment for humans, which accounts for historic migrations to areas, in the past, that are now frozen over i.e. Greenland, etc.
CO2 accounts for an extremely small percent of green house gases, and the human contribution of CO2, since the Industrial Revolution, is a tiny fraction of this insignificant amount. Ironically, an increase in CO2 emissions is actually one of the only positive contributions we’ve made to the planet; ‘positive,’ defined as an increase in plant life.
If Climate Change is studied over thousands, even millions of years, the up and down cycles look like an EKG. The planet has been much hotter and much colder in recent ages. We are actually recovering from a mini Ice Age, 500 years ago. The only shift in global climate trends that can be predicted, is downward from our current peak.
Also, the ice caps on Mars expand and contract in the same way our ice caps do. Bring these questions to the ears of the Climate Gestapo, and they’ve got nothing.
Climate change is a result of the Sun and its natural cycles. If you look at a picture of our Solar System, you’ll notice the relative size of the planets to the sun. It’s an absolute joke that climate change would be attributed to anything else. There are also intergalactic cycles, and orbits of heavenly bodies (the Mayans were aware of), which are also suspect, but discussing this would create an even greater tangent from the initial topic of Mormonism.
Man-made Climate Change is far from Scientific and closer to a blind political agenda.
There are also thousands of PHD scientists that find Man-Made Climate Change revolting and even criminal. Al Gore isn’t stupid; he knows that having the right to tax one of our basic building blocks of life, will give the Elite interest omnipotent control over mankind and end national sovereignty. I don’t think this will happen, however I do think this will only be resolved with war and bloodshed.
Humankind’s Last Stand; against whom?
Exactly. I’ve always believed that any significant change in our climate is the result of geological reactions of the earth and\or due to our sun.
I knew about the Martian icecaps for years now, I just rarely bring it up given that every time I do.. Pro-Man Made Global Warming individuals get aggressive and hostile.
Didn’t want to pollute the blog really..
In fact it’s kind of funny to me. I have no problem debating with an atheist, muslim, or the like- but the second you contradict “Scientific belief” (or as Al Gore says, “A scientific consensus”) you’re immediately met with attacks from every angle. People get more enraged about this then they do with their personal religious beliefs.
Nietzsche was right you know. God is dead, we’ve killed him- and we’ve had to replace him. The Frankenstein we’ve made is truly a sight to be behold, now isn’t it?
Science is not a belief system, it has just been made that way in recent years. Now we’re talking, this is science!
Goldstein, if the human build environment was not on the surface of the planet what do you think would be happening to the natural world in terms of evolution of plant life and biomass? You said plant life flourishes in a CO2 rich atmosphere, how is this compatible with human beings expanding over the surface of the earth, how would you allow both to expand?
Research the spread of the Harlequin Ladybird throughout Europe, I love the small things, they tell us the most!
Apologist, explain what you know of the Martian ice caps. We see evidence that there was once liquid water on the Martian surface, where has it gone? Why is there no liquid water on the surface of Mars today? Maybe you have a theory as to why we haven’t found it.
Goldstein, cattle emit methane (CH4), methane is also being released in massive quantities from the Siberian tundra. In my view CH4 from animal husbandry is man made. What is your view?
I have just observed a town squirrel engaging in “latent learning” and it has reminded me I have to go to work!
Hmmm…. We really have strayed from the original topic. Oh, well. I personally don’t really care too much about the topic of climate change. I think that man has had some impact on the climate, but largely climate change is a natural cycle.
If it doesn’t bother you, I’ll stay out of the conversation until the topic switches.
This conversation should go wherever it naturally goes. Contribute as you will.
Hey Let me say a few things. First I don’t really find the term Mormon offensive I actually call my self it a lot I didn’t know it was offensive. I am a person open to lots of ideas I am mormon cause I was born into a mormon family. To me it seems no different then any other religion it focus’s on A god and you being saved. Truly I don’t know if god or Jesus exists. We are humans and we don’t want to believe that you just die. We want something to give us hope that there is something beyond death. As far as I know all religions claim to be the one and only true religion I may be wrong but I don’t know.
Regardless until you have attended the church and read there books and got the whole of it you can’t truly understand it. I Just picked up my book of mormon for the first time a week ago and started reading it. So I can’t even say much about it.
This is a little extreme http://www.psychographicmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/Magic-Underwear1.jpg I dont think I have ever seen anyone wearing these but hey I dont know too many extreme mormons. Also I think generlizing any group is just dumb. I can agree I don’t know many black mormons but I have a lot of black friends and a few are mormon. If your gonna generalize people I guess we can say something like that guy rapes little boys so all men rape little boys.
Lastly I know some wild mormons there like any other person some of them are sluts some of them aren’t. Regardless of your religion your believing in something cause you want hope that you just dont die and its all over. I don’t know if there is something after life or if I am in the right church but the people that go to my chruch are pretty cool. They respect each other dont smoke or drink. If anything religion is a way to help people stay away from bad things or what ever.
Okay thats like all I have to say I might have thrown stuff around and confused you but what ever. Also one of my friends is a pot head hes mormon I have another friend who never dose drugs and probably wont ever and I think hes jewish so really religion in the end dosnt determine your own choices.
Chris
The reason is actually one that is pretty much well accepted today by most scientists (in particular NASA). Mars is geologically dead, meaning it has a cold core. No active volcanoes or plate shifting to speak of really, it’s a “dead” world.
When this happens the natural field the core creates collapses and with it the oceans sink beneath the surface. For instance the reddish hue Mars has is due to the vast amounts of iron deposited in the soil- rust.
There are also many geological features which suggest that water did at one time exist on the surface of Mars. (valleys, canyons, etc).
Additionally there is further proof that at certain times of the year water does “seep” onto the surface and drains down. There is satellite imagery corroborating this.
http://regmedia.co.uk/2008/06/23/martian_ice.jpg
http://www.cthisspace.com/ftl/images/wateronmars.jpg
http://a52.g.akamaitech.net/f/52/827/1d/www.space.com/images/070920_mars_gullies_02.jpg
http://www.asc-csa.gc.ca/images/mars_eau_01.jpg
This takes the cake:
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/0612/marswater_mgs_big.jpg
From what I understand it is generally accepted that water indeed existed in bodies on mars. Current theory states that alot of it is still there, we just need to look under the surface.
Apologist, not much of a theory really. Given your previous statement:
I knew about the Martian icecaps for years now, I just rarely bring it up given that every time I do.. Pro-Man Made Global Warming individuals get aggressive and hostile.
You say bodies, do you mean living organisms?
Do you mean atmospheric bodies i.e. clouds?
Did Mars have an atmosphere, if it did, where did it go and why?
There are many theories as to where the water is, for every person who thinks there is subterranean water on Mars there is someone else who thinks there is not. I am not interested in what these people think, I am interested in what your theories are!
Given your first statement I still fail to see how Mars relates to your theory that global warming is a natural process and nothing to do with man (which incidentally I am not wanting to argue with). I also fail to see how you saying what you have said about Mars would make anyone “aggressive and hostile”.
I am not interested in why it makes people aggressive or hostile but I am interested in your scientific theories.
Goldstein, I like your style.
Jacob, I note with interest that you seem to have ignored our collective role of Gods custodians of this planet:
“I think that man has had some impact on the climate”
Do you think polluting the environment in which we live is right or wrong in the eyes of your god?
Bodies meaning large quantities of water. Mars does have an atmosphere, yes.
Given that mars is dead, a receding ice cap has very limited amount of explanations- mostly that it’s a solar cause (sun). It would be different if it were overly active or had an extremely hostile greenhouse environment (Venus).
They get upset because it enrages them that evidence to the contrary does exist (and that they’re being challenged), and that another planet is being brought into the argument. Because they know nothing about another planet (or how it works) instead of getting curious or talking, they immediately go on the offensive about it .
Apologist
I still don’t see a discernible theory here. Mars is dead, large bodies of water are normally refereed to as oceans. What does the Martian atmosphere consist of, how has it changed and why?
The mark of a good scientist is the ability to ask questions. A receding ice cap on a distant planet could have so many possible explanations. Give me a theory and ask some questions. This is how science works, trying to just give me your answers doesn’t actually set you apart from Mr Gore.
Semantics. Don’t get up tight about me referring to oceans as “large bodies of water”- it’s the same thing.
The Martian atmosphere is very thin. 95% Carbon dioxide, 2.7% nitrogen, 1.6% Argon. What remains are composed of other gases.
Ah, I see where the confusion is here. I linked several images 2 posts ago, but you didn’t see that post because it’s “Awaiting Moderation” (it says so in big bold font to me).
Chris, do you only see this post: “From what I understand it is generally accepted that water indeed existed in bodies on mars. Current theory states that alot of it is still there, we just need to look under the surface.”
?
If so you’re missing an entire post I made because it has yet to be allowed by a moderator.
I just approved your comment. By default, posts are blocked that include links to stop spamming abuses. I wasn’t aware that there were pending comments that were awaiting approval. Sorry for the inconvenience.
Best Regards.
geicorules,
The only thing that confuses me is that you’re trying to offer a serious opinion without regard for simple grammar.
Don’t forget the importance of complete sentences, either.
Chris,
I think that polluting the environment is wrong in the eyes of God, but I am not God, so I cannot say that this is a fact. I know that he created the Earth, the Universe, and everything, and I know that if I created something I wouldn’t want someone messing it up. I think that it isn’t neccassarily a “sin”, after all, in Ecclisiastes 3:1 it says that for everything there is a time and a season, i.e. a time to use the recourses on Earth but I think that He would be happier if we didn’t use our resources in a wasteful or harmful manner. I think that it’s okay to mine ores from the Earth and to burn fossil fuels, but if it’s not done in moderation, it shouldn’t be done.
Sorry if any of this confused you, my brain is kind of scrambled from cold and work right now.
All,
I am LDS. I am not racist or judgmental or self centered. I know what I believe and i am proud of who i chose to be. No Person can prove that there is or isn’t a God. All someone could do is have faith that He exists and that He loves us. That all he wants is for us to live a happy life. He doesn’t want anything bad to happen to anyone of us! He loves us all equally. He knows everything about us. Even though we are all not perfect He will always love us the same. We are given Commandments for our own safety and in our best interest. He asked us to not involve ourselves in Drugs, alcohol and other harmful acts, so that we might stay away from trouble. If you would like to learn about our church and the real facts about us you can visit our websites, Mormon.org or LDS.org feel free to ask me questions about what we believe and why we do the things we do and i would love to answer to the best of my ability. I am so sorry for whatever you may have gone through. Not everyone is the same and we all have flaws and things that we wish that we wouldn’t have done. But, i just hope that you can, someday, come to not hate our church. We are who we are and we believe what we believe. We would never force our religion onto anybody. and i am truly sorry if that has happened.
I share what i believe to people because if my religion can make me fell so happy then why wouldn’t i want to share that. I want everyone to be able experience the love i have for Jesus Christ, that the LDS church has helped me experience. We are not perfect but i just hope that you can give us a second chance. I seriously encourage you to truly find out, with an open heart, if our church is right for you. If not then, i don’t hate you, i don’t think your stupid and i wish you the best life!! I write this with the utmost sincerity. I love the life i have and i wouldn’t want it any other way.
Charley,
For many (like myself) it is not how you have necessarily done to us personally but rather what your core doctrine teaches that is the issue.
In particular the beliefs written in the Pearl of Great Price.
Ascension to godhood, beliefs on the origins of Christ and Satan (and their relationship with God the Father) etc. We find it troubling.
Troubling because…
1. It is not doctrine used by most, if not all, other Christian churches.
2. It goes against what other Christian churches believe.
3. Something else entirely.
4. I don’t really know.
All of you are ignorant fools who follow some appartition of some1s imagination, Religion is the greatest lie ever told, and the most destructive and powerfull one, religion was created for weak minded people like yourselves to have hope for life after death, to control and manipulate how you live your life.
(The rest of this comment was edited out by Goldstein, because of excessive profanity and general belligerence. I have little patience for poor grammar. Insult all you want, but use a mild sense of intelligence.)
The Truth,
WHOA!!! Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed. Generalizing usually isn’t the best way to describe something. Some fanatics turn religioninto a destructize force, but on the most part, religion encourages people to be, for want of a better word, nice to others, to stay away from harmful substances, and to be ethical, although ethics are percieved differently by different people. Note the use of the word “encourage.” There are few religions out there that actually force people to do things. Also, people tend to take offense when called an “ignorant fool” or ” weak-minded.” Personally, I have weighed scientific evidence against religion, and I found nothing that proves that either one is false. There just isn’t any way to disprove either, and there isn’t any real “proof” that science and religion are opposites. As my 7th grade science teacher once said, “There is no religious text that says ‘Evolution is wrong,’ or ‘cloning is wrong.’” As for hope for life after death, don’t most people want to hope that people just cease to exist after death? I personally think that I’d rather suffer eternal pain and suffering than non-existance. Anyways, religion isn’t completely based off of life after death. I’m not sure about this, but I think Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t believe in life after death, and (again I’m not 100% certain) Hindu’s believe that, when Brahma goes to sleep, everything will cease to exist as it currently does and something new will begin when he wakes up.
BTW, if you get censored out (or as I like to say, “Insert favorite cuss/swear word here.”), you don’t get much credibility, if any. If I were atheist, I’d be ashamed to share a (is it belief system or nonbelief system?) with someone who is edited out for profanity and poor grammer by a person who has let some profanity and bad grammer enter this site.
How can you say that you cannot disprove religion, their is absolutely zero proof of it except the bible, anyone could have wrote that such as a goverment BC to create hope and contreol the people, all ‘God’ is, is the sun as the sun creates life, i suggest you watch The Zeitgeist movie 1.
Furthermore i would choose non existence over eternal torture anyday and im sure any normal person would, as you wouldnt have a mind to acknowledge you didnt exist.
The Truth
The Truth,
Okay, so there’s no “real” proof for religion. However, there also isn’t any “real” proof against religion. There isn’t enough evidence to prove or disprove it, from a scientific perspective.
Did you read the part of my previous post that says that there are few religions that force people to do things, i.e. control the people? Some priests, rabbis, etc. might be unethical, but their entire religion wasn’t origionally intended to control people. You might say that most Christian churches tell their members to give them tithing, but I might counter that by saying that they don’t force people to pay up, they encourage it. The only person they could force someone to pay by encouraging them would be a very weak-minded person with no sense of monetary value.
For the very reason you chose nonexistance I would choose eternal tourture. I want to be able to do something, to have an option. If I were to stop existing, there goes all my options. Also, with nonexistence means no hope. If I exist, I will always be able to hope for a better time, and there will always be an opportunity to make it a better time. You will never be able to have a good time ever again or even be able to remember your good times ever again if you nonexist. Even while under torture, yuo can always remember the good times you once had.
I hope this conveyed my thoughts to you in an understandable manner. Remember to improve your grammar and to be a bit more friendly!
May I just point out that the views here are quite remarkable. Let me make it very clear though. The ones who claim that mormonism is not true do this because 1. They were offended at one point or another by the words given. 2. They refuse to open their hearts. 3. They believe that if there is no God then there is no sin. If no sin then they can just do whatever is pleasurable without consequence. Oh and for the consequence of masturbation is addiction. And addiction makes one a slave to themselves. I can say this much. Satan knows The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is true. If he didnt. He wouldn’t fight it so hard or seek to disprove it. So those who seek to destroy the church and disprove it heed my warning. To every descion comes a consequence. You can throw at those the rumors and the lies of the church. You can say that were brainwashed or mormon socialization tactics are heretical. You can post pictures of our sacred emblems and write articles on things based upon ideas of man. The one thing you can not do is change the fact that 13 million members of this church have recieved a witness from God that this church is true. So fight us with educated words and heavy opinions. Its ok. When you attack us. Which you are mind you. Even those trying to change us with views on our church that is harassment. Know that to a true Mormon as you deem us. You just strenghthen our faith. So thank you for all you. I speak to the author and those who claim that God is non existent and just in our heads. Thank you for increasing my faith that God has brought the gospel of Jesus Christ on the earth once again by a prophet. Joseph Smith. Praise to The Man.
Punctuation errors aside, that post was wonderful. Good job, Tom! I don’t know what more there is to say. I hope you have a good time watching General Conference this weekend.
Happy Easter!!!
Is anyone going to post anything? Anyone at all?
Dude you info so wrong, you should really study it a little more, your just humilating yourself
Dude, you grammar so wrong! Oh, well. Kids these days. By the way(or BTW, if that’s what you prefer) are you refering to Goldsteins information, or one of the poster’s(if there is such a word) information?
100th post!!!
I really hate mormonism. Before you condemn me, please read my statement. I used to have a mormon friend, but when he was 13, he fas forced to go to mormon classes every day before school. Soon, his parents forced him to become friends with another mormon, and abandon all of his other friends, including me, if he could not convert us to mormonism. I refused to become mormon, so he was not allowed to talk to me anymore. Let me just add: He was highly intelligent, and one of the most popular kids in the school, until his bastard polygamist dad made him leave everyone behind.
Huh… Well, I guess this just goes to show that there will always be some bad apples in every bunch. Either that or he was in one of the polygamist branch offs. I think that I allready told someone on here about how you can’t judge an entire group of people by one person. Also, I don’t think that he was a “true” Mormon. First of all, you said his dad was a polygamist. We (not the FLDS or the other branch offs) stopped being polygamous over a century ago. Second, he was forced to abandon his friends. We teach that everyone has free agency, the ability to choose. If his parents forced him to stop doing something that would probably benefit him in the long run…. A thought just occured to me. What if his parents told him to stop being friends with them because he didn’t choose good friends? Friends that might eventually poison his mind and corrupt his soul? Oh, well. The past is history now. BTW, the early morning school is called seminary, and it isn’t forced upon anyone, unless their parents are messed up or something. In closing, all I can say is that I truely wish that things could have gone differently for both of you, unless my second assumption about his friends is true.
Hmm.. Mormon Kid… can you say ass and fuck? IF you are defending your belief you just look like a jack ass simply because you can’t even follow the rules… Go put on your underwear and drink a coke and get over it. :]
Jen,
You know, of all the things you could’ve posted about, you chose a person who hasn’t posted since this thread(I believe that’s the proper terminology) began? I agree that he shouldn’t be using words like that in defense of a serious religion, although I would have used slightly cleaner language. While on the subject of dirty language, I found a bunch of substitutes for foul words. Examples: What the dang it! Free squidly! Shut the front door! Argle! Bargle! Arglebargle! What the hairy diapers! Chunky meatballs! Etc., etc., etc. Does anyone have any more?
Um HELLO where did you get your facts? this is not only completely biased but it is untrue pretty much everything you said here is not only not true but extremely religiously prejudice. I should know I AM MORMON
You know, for future reference, I think by now that he already KNOWS that his messages were wrong. Please, post something a bit more creative. BTW if you would look at one of his posts, I think he says that this was intended strictly as a fanciful jest, which means that he was just poking fun at us.
Question to anyone who cares to answer, please define God and Satan. Also What does the word Amen actually mean, whilst I’m at it do any of you know the meaning of the word Om?
Jen, Ned Flanders from the Simpsons’ dialect is riddled with such language. I like the Simpsons’.
Chris,
First, let me say that Google is your friend, but there are many incorrect answers out there. Amen is easiest. It means “I agree” if I am remembering properly. Om might actually be easier than amen. Om is a sound commonly made while meditating. I think it provides something to keep the meditator from being distracted. God and Satan are a bit tricky. A god, not capitalized, is basically any being with supreme power, and usually immortality. God, capitalized, is, at least in most forms of Christianity, which I’m going by, is the creator of the universe and everything in it. He is our loving Father and wants us to be happy. Satan, on the other hand, is a fallen angel who is eternally miserable, for he tried to usurp God’s power, and will therefore not rest until all souls are also eternally miserable like him.
Did that work for you.
Jacob, Ahh Bless, you’re still not quite there… I don’t actually need you to answer the questions.
There is a little known law of science. It is called stocks law and it states “If you are providing all the answers, you are asking the wrong questions”.
Start asking! The question is are you ready to learn.
BTW what you wrote is correct, but there are many other definitions. If you would like to hear my definitions you only have to ask.
Whoops! I guess I should’ve known that you already knew the answers. Now that you mention it, I would enjoy it if you were to write your definitions. I’m always ready to learn
Jacob
Learn or Argue back that is the first question. The simple answer is that they are all simply words. In Christianity all words come from God and all words go to God, in the beginning was the word and the word was God…………(insert the entire bible here)……Amen. Om is the same and so believe it or not is Satan.
They are all abstract constructs, it is possible to separate ones concious thought from reality and simply watch your own thoughts and emotions. All religions try to teach the importance of respect to your fellow animals with which we share the planet. Part of this respect should be the lack of necessity to argue or convert them to your way of thinking. Atheism, Christianity, Hinduism and Buddhism are all religions, in the modern world Science has even become a religion. My first statement does not make me a sinner and by the way I can converse with any religious person and can “make” them angry or “make” them believe they see God working through me. Fortunately for them I choose to do neither. When you can make your peace with the first statement and me not being a sinner then you will know what I know (Of course you will probably say we are all sinners). There is a state of mind where this is true. Finding that state of mind starts with living a spiritual life, which you can do as a Christian, a Jew or even an Atheist. I don’t however think you can find it by starting out as a Satanist.
I will be interested to see if your response is one of argument or questioning.
I feel a need to post this.
As of late many have felt and acted harshly against the Lds people, or what many have nicked named us `Mormons ` although we once did believe in polygamy we were only doing what the lord commanded of our ancestors. As of now we do not practice this polygamy act anymore. Although, many people have dissented from the church and have used similar church guidelines, but wanted to keep the polygamy, Ie: Warren Jeffs. He runs the Church called flds or the fmormons.
Now the clothing which they said was evil, is actually considered sacred clothing to us for many reasons. Yet some seem to try to portray it as an evil aspect.
I feel constrained to have written this, because I feel that this is a misunderstanding, and this topic has been written on only one side of the belief system.
So please, if you want to learn more about the lds church, don’t go to someones website about what they believe mormons are, go to lds.org, or mormon.org
If you want to know more, you can contact local missionaries, and read the book mormon for yourself.
We are children of god, and he loves us so let there be no contention between us.
Chris,
I am slightly confused about your second paragraph. What I got out of it was that religion is a human construct, it teaches many good things, although we could go without some, and that when I can be at peace understanding that your first statement doesn’t make you a sinner, I will know what you know about “making”(because you can’t force people to do somethings) people think certain things about you. You show an ability to think clearly in predicting that I would say that we are all sinners. To a degree, I believe that to be true. I beleive that there are some who try their best to be perfect, and they can be very close, but we all have character flaws that make us imperfect and human. I don’t believe, however, that your first statement makes you a sinner. I’m not like one of those evangilical, “fire and brimstone” people who think that everyone who doesn’t think the same, often illogical, things as they do will go and burn in eternal torment forever. I personally believe that you are right, to a degree. Many, many religions are just a human construct, designed to either help and comfort others or to gain money. However, I beleive that the true church, if it exists, which I beleive it does, and that I’m part of it, is more than just a human construct.
Summary- You are a good thinker, some religions are a construct, the true one isn’t, disagreeing with my beliefs and/or being non-Christian doesn’t make one a sinner, and “eternal torment forever” is extremelly redundant, which is a redundant way of saying redundant.
Jacob
The true church is in your mind, it is what you decide it to be, in that moment. I think that a code of ethics to live by is more important than definitions of religion. All religions are constructed at some point by someone. Joseph Smith constructed yours. Some time ago I followed one constructed by a man called Francis (as in Assisi). Both of these religions broke from a single religion constructed by a man called Jesus, who in turn split from Judaism, dividing the Jewish God into three parts. I have since, constructed my own, it has only one follower (and that is how it is going to stay), me!
If we look at all the world religions (Satanism aside) the ethics are similar, the important things, respect for you fellow man, a duty to the less well off than yourself and respecting the planet are there in all of them. I truly wish more people could actually see this. Your last statement shows a more enlightened mind than the last statement from JOhn.
I actually have no idea what religion I follow, but I am not Agnostic or Atheist. I guess it is best summed up by the phrase “I march to the beat of my own drum”. Ethics are important they should unite society, so often they divide us, because we as humans have a nasty habit of wanting the last word to tell everyone else what to do or think.
There is this:-
Question: How do you know you are a follower of the true church?
Answer: You don’t.
The important bit here is the word know, if you add the word believe to the answer, then in order to respond the respondent has a choice, either ask another question, or argue their point and try and convert you, by telling you that you are wrong. There is a third choice, turn the other cheek and walk away.
You’re right. I might not totally agree with everything you write (I think that a better term for what Jesus and Joseph Smith did would be REconstructing), but you have very sound logic, the likes of which I have seen little of. I think that at this point, option three is probably best. Nothing anyone says can sway either of our points of view. It’s like a stalemate. The only thing to do, unless either my or your judgement is foggier than I thought, is to wait for someone of lesser mental capacities to come, and until then discuss whatever might occur to us. This should be interesting.
I wouldn’t call it stalemate I call it understanding the others point of view and accommodating their viewpoint in your reality without the need to argue.
re-constructed would have probably been a better choice of word to convey my point.
Live long and prosper, Jacob
Mormon Kid… I think this post was a fake by Goldstein, just to get things started. There was far too much swearing going on for a good Mormon kid. Good going Goldstein. If I’m wrong, I appologize.
another mormon kid… you took Goldstein’s bate, sorry kid. If not Goldstein, then Mormon Kid shouldn’t swear anytime, not just because the Mormon church was insulted.
Person… we are all human with human faults. If you think there aren’t any alcoholics in the Mormon church you’re fooling yourself. And if there were… I’m sure that you would accept them with open arms nonetheless… right? Oh… and Person… if Mormons really believe they are the only 100% “true” church, then it is a shame that you are so close-minded and misguided to even say that. For Christians there’s one heaven, one God, and one way to get there… through Jesus. Sorry, but the last time I checked the true word of God, the Holy Bible, there was no single church ever named. What was said is, that they get there through Jesus. No offence atheists and Goldstein, you can disregard that last part. Person, don’t quote true church names to Jay. Smith’s church was called… Church of Christ. You all chose to change the name later, so don’t give Jay grief if he wants to change the name too. Oh Person, I’m sure other religions and non-religions both love there families too. Heck, even Goldstein’s family probably loves him, every now and then.
Jay… Sorry to hear about the ex-girlfriend, bro. She sounds pretty cool, but then again you never should have went into a relationship that was so unevenly yoked.
“Nobody” and “nobody”… get a room. You can cut the sexual tension with a knife. Same goes for you Goldstein and Chris. Nobody… about he highest place on Earth… it grows at a rate of 2.4 inches per year. That means you once stood at what was the highest place on Earth. Others have stood higher.
Mormon Kid… I think this post was a fake by Goldstein, just to get things started. There was far too much swearing going on for a good Mormon kid. Good going Goldstein. If I’m wrong, I appologize.
another mormon kid… you took Goldstein’s bate, sorry kid. If not Goldstein, then Mormon Kid shouldn’t swear anytime, not just because the Mormon church was insulted.
Person… we are all human with human faults. If you think there aren’t any alcoholics in the Mormon church you’re fooling yourself. And if there were… I’m sure that you would accept them with open arms nonetheless… right? Oh… and Person… if Mormons really believe they are the only 100% “true” church, then it is a shame that you are so close-minded and misguided to even say that. For Christians there’s one heaven, one God, and one way to get there… through Jesus. Sorry, but the last time I checked the true word of God, the Holy Bible, there was no single church ever named. What was said is, that they get there through Jesus. No offence atheists and Goldstein, you can disregard that last part. Person, don’t quote true church names to Jay. Smith’s church was called… Church of Christ. You all chose to change the name later, so don’t give Jay grief if he wants to change the name too. Oh Person, I’m sure other religions and non-religions both love there families too. Heck, even Goldstein’s family probably loves him, every now and then.
Jay… Sorry to hear about the ex-girlfriend, bro. She sounds pretty cool, but then again you never should have went into a relationship that was so unevenly yoked.
“Nobody” and “nobody”… get a room. You can cut the sexual tension with a knife. Same goes for you Goldstein and Chris. Nobody… about he highest place on Earth… it grows at a rate of 2.4 inches per year. That means you once stood at what was the highest place on Earth. Others have stood higher.
Kelly,
You post on what happened months ago by people who no longer post? Interesting. Oh, well. I guess that’s what happens when you try to read over 100 posts in a short period of time. The same would probably happen to me or any other human.
Chris,
Thanks for the better choice of words.
May the Force be with you, Chris.
I like dicks in my butt and so do you guys
I’m a Mormon and i feel very offended at what you wrote we renounced polygamy more than 100 yearsago we aren’t racist that 4th 1 is just plain wrong and you should be ashamed. This just shows that the true church is the most persecuted, Kelly are you sugesting that Nobody nobody Chris and Goldstein are gay? And that last person is obviously a boy so he’s probably gay too.
Also, Mormon kid posted months after goldstein first wrote so he probably isnt just bait made by goldstein
Offended,
Whoa there! Grammar train wreck! Next time try expressing yourself a bit more politely and with more respect for the dying ways of proper English speaking and writting.
ok i have no idea where you got your facts, but most of them are so unture. and the ones that are true are explained ina bias way so the facts are twisted against mormons. if you are going to post a site about mormon beliefs you really should take the time to find out what we believe.
Guys, chill out.
OMG LOOK TURTLES!
Offended Mormon Girl
I appreciate that you want people to understand how untrue these things are, but next time try expressing yourself with more respect for the dying ways of proper English speaking and writting.
Remember who you are and what you represent.
Catholic Chick,
We “will chill out” when we all come to a mutual and unbiased understanding of each other. Unfourtunatly, some are raised, both Mormon and non, to hate those that are different, which goes against almost everything Christ taught. It is difficult to come to a mutual and unbiased understanding with them. If you’d like to help with that, we’d all be happy.
OMGosh! Squirrels!!!
Jacob
Listen to one talk, Read one (church approved) article, read a chapter out of the TRUE docterine (AKA The Book Of Mormon), then decide whether you can judge us or not!!!
Just because you have a different belief system than us, does not give you the right to persecute our church, (AKA the only true one!!!) You don’t see any sex scandels in our church leadership, you don’t see us blowing up buildings!!! So what the heck did we do to you to deserve this slander?!? Maybe you should go to church! Obviously you need it!!!!
Utah Jazz!!!,
You seem to be having the same problem as Mormon Kid did. You are trying to defend the Church while under the influence of anger. This will NEVER work to our advantage. If you want to defend us, calm down.
Jacob
Yo Listen up. First off, Mormon Kid, learn some proper grammar you idiot. Second of all, and sorry to all you Mormons out there, the but your religion is a FRAUD. Joseph Smith was a CON ARTIST (look it up if you don’t believe it, he really was). I don’t know hoe you never came to see it how it is, but the dude created your religion behind a curtain reading from some “golden tablets” that only he could see (basically because he was making it up as he went along) for the sole purpose of being America’s #1 hustler. He could get with as many babes as he wanted and own them all, he could hate on black people all he wanted because “God hates them,” and he could claim all the money his religion made for himself. He was an outlaw and a con artist and he conned every last one of you worse than Elron Hubbard did to all those Scientologist idiots out there. Come on guys, get real. Just so we’re all clear by the way, I have nothing against you guys, I just think your following is whack and you all should consider the facts about Joseph Smith and the whole concept of your religion in general.
Buncha stupid kids,
Alright then, if you believe this is false, fine, go on believing that. It won’t do anything to shake my beliefs or the beliefs of the 13.5 million other Mormons out there. I notice that you never put one solid fact in there, the closest one being to “look it up.” By the way, you wouldn’t happen to know that you can’t believe everything you read online. I have a hard time believing that you have nothing against us.
Jacob
P.S.They’re plates, not tablets.
First off the professional scientists studied the book that we have now and the have proven many times over that Joseph Smith couldn’t have possibly made any of it up. Please stop hating the Mormons.
Ok all you mormona who aré arguing with these non mormons do not be frustratrated with their remarks bear your testimony to them and love them even id they hate you thats what Jesús christ would do and to you non mormons i am a faithful member of the church and know i will never be perfect but know God loves us all enough to give us a chance i bear my testimony that contention is of Satán anf we should be discussing this peacefully not bickering and bashing and that through the gospel of Jesús christ anybody can return to live with God amen
I just spent about 30 minutes reading through the responses….. there are couple of things I’d like to say: in response to Jacob, in Utah there are a few more non-so-vulgar words, such as “flip” (or the adjective form, “flippin”), “bon-of-a-sitch,” “gosh” and / or “gosh darn” (or the mother of all, “what in the gosh-darn-flippin-heck!”), funky-buttlovin, etc. Also, most sentances here begin with “… did you hear that “, “… well, I heard that…”, “my sister’s husband’s brother-in-law said that…”, etc. I am LDS, have been my whole life… I have also grown up listening to hair metal, went to a nude beach while serving my mission on France (who wouldn’t?), and my favorite movie is Hot Tub Time Machine. I have friends who are of many different creeds, religions, and lifestyles. My goal is to be the best person/husband/friend/father I can be by being an example, rather than being a mouthpiece. Any idiot can advise someone else on how to live thier life… but I have been through enough to know that true character is shown in crisis – and many people that have been considered “solid members” of the church have come up very, very short (not all, and I am not judging anyone, myself included…just relaying personal experience). After all, is leaving an annonymous post on a random blog any way of convincing anyone of anything? just saying.
See I leave it alone for a few months. I am disappointed to find that this thread has gone straight back to ranting over who is right. When I read comments on threads the trick (and it is just that) goes something like this….
I read “rant rant rant” and I look and analyse, then conclude. Ah anger issues.
Or I read “blah blah blah” and conclude insecurity issues.
Ahead of time, I read this thread and conclude over analysis issues.
It is only when we truly know our own minds that we are in a position to help others. Guess what we can never help others by arguing over religion or for that matter emotions.
Nufsed
Everyone hates on mormons. And I have formulated a theory as to why. 1) They just want to attack a church that is fairly new. 2) They can bring NO hard evidence to deny Latter-Day Saints, they can only make unfactual, incorrect, or just snide remarks to attack someone who is different. 3) They hate that mormon’s believe their church is true.
It seems odd to me that noone attacks catholicism on this level. I say this as a former catholic. Everyone just seems to forget all the stuff catholics have done.
WWYMD
Don’t feel hard done by. Don’t feel insecure in what you believe. This is a brilliant investigation into what it is to be a catholic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VABSoHYQr6k
I am sure you will all take this as yet another attack, It isn’t. The lesson here is whatever we believe on this sort of thing be it Atheism, Some form of Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism and even those of the Muslim faith. Learn to laugh, if we can’t laugh at ourselves we are sorry individuals. Don’t take yourself too seriously.
Chris
This has definitely been a very interesting read.
I was born under the covenant (to parents cealed in the Temple), and have been through many trials throughout my life. And I have come to know for myself that The LDS Church is the true church.
As Jacob has posted in the past, all Churches have some truth to them.
And many of the basic beliefs in almost all religions, have the same core principles and teachings. Many of the differnces in beliefs are even as simple as having a diffirent name.
As a co-worker and I have discussed, everyone has their own opinion of what is the truth. Even if you could prove something (your opinion) was 100% factual/truth, their are people who will not accept it.
They want to have their opinion recognized, not to be proven wrong. Many times even with hard evidence, they will still argue their opinion/belief no matter what.
And we just need to accept them for who they are.
And I truly hope and pray that we can all try to be understanding and considerate of each others beliefs and feelings.
Pete
Wow.
Just goes to show you that there are ignorant and biased people on BOTH sides, so willing to fight fire with fire.
I’ve read most of the responses but let me clear up the claims of the original post.
Polygamy – As a member of the LDS Church, this bothers me and always has. I don’t like it. And yet, because of my unwavering faith and the fact that I know with surety that this Church is true, I accept this as a part of our history and that, despite some earthly claims for WHY it was practiced, there is an eternal reason for God to command his children to do so. I may never know that reason until I can ask God himself.
The Mormons DID get the memo! In 1890, church president and prophet Wilford Woodruff officially declared that polygamy was wrong. You can lose your membership in the church if you continue to practice polygamy. The Fundamentalist Mormons are a separate organization from the Latter-day Saints. They have not left the 1800′s behind them.
2. Where did you do your research? Sex is not strictly for procreation.
It says, in Gospel Reference True to the Faith, a sanctioned Church resource, that “While one purpose of these relations within marriage is to provide physical bodies for God’s children, another purpose is to express love for one another — to bind husband and wife together in loyalty, fidelity, consideration, and common purpose.”
On another note, birth control is a personal decision and not rejected by the Church. If someone wants to act the theological historian buff and bring up Onan spilling his seed upon the ground in the Old Testament and God becoming displeased. . .this scripture context relays that God was displeased with Onan “pulling out” because he had been commanded to impregnate the woman. He directly disobeyed. It does not say that “spilling seed” is abominable.
3. There are a lot of really hilarious Mormon jokes. Unfortunately, they are so often told in a malicious and mocking manner rather than poking general lighthearted fun at our own culture.
It is sad that someone would say that “can’t” do something simply because they are Mormon. I “can” do anything I want. I have free agency. I can see R-rated movies if I want to. I can have premarital sex if I want to. I can cheat on my husband if I want to. I can drink till I’m dead if I want to.
I don’t want to. Not because somebody told me I can’t. But because I see the consequences of those decisions and I’m not interested. I have FELT some of the consequences of those decisions. And I am sincerely repentant and still. . .not interested.
I also find it extremely disrespectful and in bad taste that you would show a picture of the sacred garments worthy and faithful LDS people wear as an outward expression of their testimonies to the truth of the Mormon doctrine and gospel.
These garments are meant to keep us humble and modest. When I put them on, I am reminded of why I put them on. I remember who I am. And to whom I belong.
I understand curiosity about them from people who don’t understand. . .but what you have done is make a mockery of what they stand for. And that is cruel and misleading.
4. Everybody judges. It is human nature. It is the nature of God to inspire us to overcome that natural tendency and rise above. This does not mean we think we’re better. This does not make us self-righteous. Some Mormons may feel that way. Just as any Catholic might feel that way. Just as any Muslim might feel that way. Just as any Buddhist might feel that way. Just as you might feel that way.
Making careful and deliberate judgments and prejudice are two very different things. If I have a child whom I am raising in the gospel and you have a child who engages in behaviors and activities that are directly against our standards. . .I am not judging you by denying my child the opportunity to play with yours. I am making a judgment call for the sake of my child’s influences. Just as you yourself might make the same call for your child if you do not wish them to be exposed to the influence of the Church. Fair enough.
It is true that there was a curse on the Lamanites in the Book of Mormon that caused them to have dark skin. These are the peoples in the Americas that many know as the precursors to the Aztecs. This does not mean that to have dark skin, you are cursed. This is ancestral. It was, at the time, a means to tell one people from another. If you read the Book of Mormon, you would know that there are times when the Lamanites, these cursed dark people, were the righteous ones, doing good and prospering.
Do not make snap judgments. After all, of course my initial feelings after having read your post were to be angry and wonder who you think you are to make these claims and ridicule my beliefs. And yet. . .I don’t know you. Maybe you’re just ignorant of the facts. Maybe you’ve been treated wrongly by Mormons. Maybe you’ve had bad experiences with religion in general that have resulted in a cold shoulder towards anyone who thinks differently. I don’t know. So I’m not angry. I just hope that, in the future, you try to look at your own bias as I have done in relating to you a clearer understanding of the claims you have made.
Ihatemilkduds,
Wow. That was good. I don’t really have anything to say, except one. I was listening in on a conversation my parents were having with their siblings the other day, and I heard something interesting on the subject of blacks (or African-Americans, coloreds, etc.) and the priesthood. While no one except the Lord knows for sure why it was withheld, one hypothesis is that enough of the white (or etc.) population of the church was prejudice in one way or another that it would create a rift in the church. Then again, it could be completely false, and no one would know, until the Millenium, of course. Thank you for the great post.
P.S. Why do you hate milkduds? I myself dislike their chewiness and cruel aftertaste. Same with you?
Jacob.
Haha. Hi Jacob. I hate them because of the unfortunate 4 years of my life in which I had braces. So any goods of a chewy and sugary nature were out. I had a friend spit a milk dud into the air when he was on stage at a concert and I caught it in my mouth. Not on purpose. Just some crazy cosmic coincidence.
As for the black people being denied the priesthood for so long. . .that is chocked up there with the polygamy. I will not know for sure until I can ask God for myself. Until then, I know for a surety there is a reason for it.
I have also speculated that it might be because the time was wrong and it would cause quite a rift. . .but then, there are plenty of times in which things HAVE been commanded and done and they cause rifts. . .so why not this time as well? Right?
I know that black people are descended from Cain. Another curse of dark skin that is separate from the curse of dark skin for the Lamanites. More people are familiar with Cain as that is in the Bible.
Many prophets and apostles in the church for years stated that white people should not intermarry with black people. This may seem racist because, let’s face it. . .it sure sounds that way! But the reason why this was commanded of us was because black men couldn’t hold the priesthood that is needed in the Church to perform important ordinances and fulfill patriarchal duties (which is a whole different issue about traditional roles for men and women, haha.)
If a white woman intermarried with a black man. . .he could not hold the priesthood and provide blessings for his family. If a white man intermarried with a white woman and they had a son, he could not hold the priesthood when he came of age. God knew this. And so did his followers. It was not a racist commandment. It was a pragmatic and practical one.
God loves us and considers our feelings but ultimately, the most important thing is to keep His gospel on earth and if there’s no one to hold the priesthood because we’ve intermarried into oblivion. . .we would hit a state of apostasy and all would be lost.
Thankfully. . .times change. God doesn’t change. But humans do. And the only thing I can think of that makes sense in all this is that, if all black men in the United States could hold the priesthood before the 1970′s. . .our church would have been even more persecuted than it already had been. We might have been utterly destroyed. Hatred was so rampant then that I’m sure to even be a black member of the Church. . .consorting with white people in church. . .I can’t even imagine what it must have been like. For the black people who had to endure it. And for the white people who wanted to help and were frightened to for fear of repercussions.
There is a season for all things. Truly. The decisions God makes when he commands us to do things. . .he is seeing everything from an eternal perspective, right? Not like us. Not like we see today, yesterday, tomorrow, next week, 10 years ago, 3 years from now, 4 decades ago, whatever. God sees it all. And how presumptuous of us to think we can unravel every decision of his. That’s madness, haha!
It is not blind following to believe that there is a purpose you don’t yet see. I pray constantly to understand, to see. Sometimes I do begin to see and sometimes I don’t. But I always trust that there is an answer. . .maybe I’m just not ready to receive it. That seems crazy to some people. Some people will never comprehend what that means; to trust someone implicitly. Especially when that someone is a personage that they can’t see. But I see God. I hear him. I can’t prove that. I don’t need to. Faith doesn’t come from someone else’s proof. It comes from God and God alone and is only presented to an individual as they are ready to receive it.
Oh and to Mr. Clean, I’m glad you brought this up:
“Even if you could prove something (your opinion) was 100% factual/truth, their are people who will not accept it.”
I mean, look at when Jesus was on the earth. Performing miracles, no less. There were still doubters, still unbelievers. Contention, hate, misunderstanding; these are the tools of Satan. He is incredibly clever and we should never underestimate his power.
Plenty of people still thought Jesus was just a nice guy in sandals who did magic tricks. But, underneath it all, they perceived him as a threat. Thankfully, it was the plan all along for him to be captured and crucified (although I do not believe in fate, these planned historical points are quite different.)
That is how the Church is perceived today. People are threatened. Threatened by something they refuse to allow themselves to understand. People think it’s all hocus-pocus-God-works-in-mysterious-ways-we’ll-leave-it-up-to-God’s-will. It’s nothing like that. There are always going to be mysteries and things unexplained. Even in your precious scientific world (by the way, God’s the greatest scientist who’s ever lived) there is the unknown. But God is not a mystery. Those of us who are members of the Christian world know who God is. what he wants, and why we’re here.
Guys, how many of you Non-Mormons actually know what you’re talking about? i haven’t heard one true thing here, other than what Mormon Boy, Another Mormon Kid, and Person have said. Why don’t you guys actually try learing about us before you create stuff like this? Personally, I think that all of you feel so insecure and threatened by us that you would do pratically anything to try and bring us down. But you know what? It isn’t going to work, because while the people in the curch aren’t alwaystrue, THE CHURCH ITSELF ALWAYS IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Ok, there are several others here with true words… sorry i missed you guys.
Ihatemilkduds,
.
Interesting. I myself have never been blessed/cursed with braces, but I think your reason is pretty funny
Thank you for the great post. It answered some of MY questions. Although I am slightly confused: weren’t Cain’s descendants wiped out in the Flood? Under the We-Are-All-Descendants-Of-Noah-’Cause-Everyone-Else-Died logic, wouldn’t that mean we’re all either descended from Cain or all not? That’s the way I see things.
YoungWomanWithStandards,
I have this pet peeve with many people: whenever someone starts attacking the church, we go ballisticslly defensive. I probably did it to back when I went under the guise of Person. And thank you for including everyone else.
I think this is one of the stupidest discussions of religion i have ever read. I especially find logical arguments supporting religion ridiculous. I am religious myself, but i am also smart enough to know the core of religion is not logic. Its faith. Faith requires a different reasoning. For thousands of years people have tried to make logical arguments proving or disproving the existence of God. Neither have succeeded. Frankly, logic and reason is not powerful enough to comprehend the things religion claims. To understand religion takes an entirely different method of understanding. One that not all people are courageous enough to investigate. Additionally irreligious people will argue that religious people are not courageous enough to accept the possibility of a disorganized universe. So which is right? That is the wrong line of thinking. That demands deduction and concreteness that won’t work when dealing with issues of the soul. When Timothy asked Jesus “What is truth?” (a very Greek philosophical question at the time, or as religious people would call it “worldly”), Jesus answered “I am the way the truth and the light…” Jesus answered a what question with a who answer. That makes no logical sense. And yet, this line of understanding can be understood, but not through logic and reason. In the end, with matters of religion is or is not what it claims to be. That is the what question. In the end it matters who you become with what you believe or what you know. You don’t go to Muslims to learn about Jews. You don’t go to atheists to learn about religion. You don’t go to people who are attempting to disprove Mormonism to learn about Mormons. Because in the end it isn’t a matter of learning what someone knows, it is learning who they are. As Jesus put it, that is the way and the truth. If you believe in Jesus, then find Him in yourself, and then find Him in others. That will lead you to the truth. Christians or Atheists treat Mormons tells you about Christians or Atheists, not Mormons. How Mormons treat others tell you about Mormonism. As a religious man, I believe it is only when I find the purest and sweetest values within myself, that i am able to recognize and accept those in others. That is who to find truth in.
I do not expect those who demand proof for their faith to understand this plea (i suppose i don’t consider this an argument, or even a point because it doesn’t follow the rules of indicative or logical argument forms), of for those who demand anything rational as proof before their belief. They are essentially asking for an understanding of advanced physics but only if it is explained using an elementary school reading and math level. Good science and good religion are the same thing. When they contradict, one must be wrong because they both claim absolute truth. However, neither camp is qualified to to make any absolute claim about the other because they by means of necessity use different methods to come to their conclusions. Reason and religion aren’t like different languages. Different languages can be translated into another. They are more like different senses (metaphorically, not literally). Your sight may be deceived, your ears may be deceived, but your sight will never effectively be able to be translated into sound. Something will always be missing. So go ahead and make arguments against what i say, it only shows you don’t understand it. However, if you have a different point of view, or idea, i would be very happy to consider it. I am looking for the truth in everyone. For those of you who read this whole thing, i appreciate it, and i apologize. This got much longer than i anticipated.
wow. you had that bottled up for a while didn’t you Cynic? and i agree with you on somethings. something always will be missing because everyone has a diffrent point of view and doesn’t see everything. but also, if you don’t know about something, how can you critisize it? how do you even know what you’re critisizing? it just really annoys me when people do that. if they would just try and learn, to understand, then maybe their wouldn’t be so much bad stuff in the world today.
and for thos whom i missed: i was in a rush because my class was almost over, and only just got to read a few comments. very sorry i didn’t get more time to acknowledge you guys.
So this thread got me thinking more about Mormons and Mormon responses to the issues discussed. I mean, are members really the best source? I believe so when it comes to understanding what it means to be a Mormon, but how much to Catholics know about Catholicism? Understanding the dogma of a religion, and its practice are two very different things. If you want to get to know Mormonism, get to know a Mormon. I don’t know how. They don’t exactly list themselves like sex offenders do, and i don’t know how to pick them out of a crowd, so good luck. But if you want to learn about them, i found this great website that responds to the criticisms made about them. It is run by BYU and i believe funded by the Mormon Church, but this foundation actually investigates claims made about the church cannon. I don’t find it to be convincing from a religious aspect (since i don’t believe religion is about “convincing” as much as conversion) but i do find it academically compelling, and a richer source on “reasons” that Mormons do things than members seem to be. Oh, and its free. Not many academic publications are like that. So go nuts.
http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/
@Jacob – As far as I understand it, I THINK Cain’s seed was preserved through the wife of one of Noah’s sons. I’m no scripture master, haha, but I believe there’s mention of it in Abraham, if not specifically then speculated on in supplemental Church material.
Cynic is completely right. The thing is. . .this debate (if you can even call it that) will rage on through the centuries just as it has for centuries because people desire the power of righteousness. For the religious people, it’s the righteousness of God and his gospel. For the atheists, it’s the righteousness of science and concrete facts.
The thing is. . .God is a logical being. The world was not created, it was organized. His law is not mysterious and chaotic, it is designed and given to us through scriptures, through prophets, through personal revelation.
However, faith in God is not logical. It defies it even. I love how atheists retort, “Why does God not come down and show us? Show us who he is and what he wants from us?”
Um. . .he DID! Anyone remember a man named Jesus? We saw how that worked out. There will always be doubt. There will always be unbelief. There will always be reason.
This is not to say that one should ignore all logic and reason in the world and cast away thoughts of science and method. Of course not, that’s an absolutely ridiculous notion! One is to be said is that faith works so very differently from every worldly, physical experience we have as human beings.
Which is why I always say that I will not prove my faith to another. I can’t. It is impossible. I can share my testimony and lead by example. But, until an individual finds their OWN proof and feels the warmth in their heart and the change in their souls; when they DO physically feel God in them. . .it’s all just words.
And sometimes nasty words at that. Because this debate always turns ugly. It’s an intense and serious and emotional topic where people become defensive rather quickly. Or try to use bible verses to back up their claims. Another mistake. By all means, use verses to comfort or make a point with those of your faith but. . .using them to “prove” a point is often going to fall on deaf ears.
It’s like if someone tried to prove their point using a quote from Darwin. Well. . .he’s just a man to many Christians. Just a man who caused a lot of trouble for their churches. Well. . .Jesus is just a man to atheists. Just a man who caused a lot of trouble for them.
u mormons r fuckin retards
u people need to get ur shit straight none of ur shit isn’t true & i ur proufit can suck the devil’s dick (lucifer)
Myths indeed. As an active (and studied) Mormon, I appreciate your efforts to clarify these misconceptions.
1) Polygamy, indeed – there were other reasons, so the myth that these (as stated) are the only possibly and appropriate explanations is worth debunking.
2) Sex is definitely for pleasure as well. Thanks, infinitely, for dispelling that myth.
3) That’s a funny joke (about the beer). But indeed – a myth. I just spent a week on a sailboat with 8 other non-Mormons. There was tons of rum on board, and the rest of my mates were quite pleased that they got an extra 1/9 portion. What can I say – we were all glad that the joke was a myth. I happily didn’t drink. They happily drank more. And they all lived happily ever after (except that I was bummed that, for them, rum=fun and when there wasn’t rum, all fun had to stop… drinks not required for Mormons to have fun). So I suppose here’s a myth to dispel: alcohol is the source of all fun.
4) Maybe this is why I left Utah(a seemingly higher incidence of such xenophobia)? Mormonism around the world tends to dispel the myth as well, but thanks for adding it to the list.
5) You used a “Big Love” photo as a representation of Mormonism? Um… speaking of Myths… The idea that “Big Love” represents Mormonism in the 2000s is one worth dispelling as well.
Anyhow good work – keep it up.
Goldstien,
Where you born and raised in Utah, or did you justere have a nice little visit? Im sure that most mormons live in utah but still. Im not even morman and half the crap your saying just makes me laugh.
“No interracial marragie”? Each time I am invited attend church with my friends I see married couples. Black and black, white and black, white and white. Racist? No.
My friends that are mormon dont mind being called mormon.
And you say that mormans always judge others? I can’t tell you how many times I have wanted to hang out with my friends who are mormon but they could’nt because they were helping the homeless/needy/any other person weither they be mormon or not.
And the polygamy subject? Yeah you dont see that here either.
With the whole “no pleasure thing” I have talked to my friends who are morman and they said, “we are encouraged to stay a virgin until marriage…then you can have a hay day with your spouse!”
Plus your suggesting that if your mormon, then you being mormon are auto-matically perfect. Ummm no, weither your athiest, morman, christian, or whatever else NONEONE IS PERFECT. You are a being very bigoted on this subject.
Once again I AM NOT MORMON. I have only told you of my personal experiences and what I have seen, felt, heard, and know of Mormons. Everyone deserves to have their own choice of religion and should be respected for their choice.
Good luck with your blog and if you have any questions to ask me about mormon than go ahead.
Sincerly,
Eric
P.S. you are a convincing writter.
@Eric – He is convincing, isn’t he? The devil’s in the details though. The most important thing all people (not just Mormons or Christians or whathaveyou) can learn from this is that Satan is cunning. People think they’re free? Free because they don’t have to answer to some God? Hm, interesting. They may never realize they are being used. Used as a mouthpiece of Satan to spread untruths and contention.
It’s easy to recognize evil. It’s simple to know right from wrong in a million situations. But it’s must more difficult to decipher some of the more cunning lies in the form of half-truths and allegations.
Discernment is everything. And it’s a shame that so many people are willing to believe the first thing they hear because it might justify their hatred or even apathy towards another group of people who are different from themselves.
Not everyone has to be comfortable with our choice, as Mormons, to follow Christ. But you do need to show some respect because, if you let unkind and poisonous words leave your lips, then you are being controlled by someone else. And that someone else doesn’t care about you one lick. They certainly don’t respect you. You are being duped, fooled. And you don’t even know it.
The ideas in this blog are not unique. These are all claims that I have heard before, and I honestly think that the author of this blog may truly believe all of this. That is fine. I can’t make the writer or any of you readers of this blog disagree with anything said on here. Free will allows everyone to believe what they choose to believe. Each and every one of you has a mind of your own. You can think and reason and form opinions and learn. Believe what you wish. BUT, I ask you, if you have that ability, are you going to waste it by simply believing what you hear on this blog? Or, are you going to question it? Think for yourself.
This blog depends so much on emotion. The author is smart! They know that the easiest way to persuade people is to target their emotions. However, just because this blog has successfully gotten to you because it has made you angry, does that make it fact? Does that make it truth? No. It doesn’t. Please, don’t allow yourself to be easily manipulated. Learn for yourself what Mormonism really is.
Now as for where you can go to get the actual facts, bear with me for a moment. When you hear about something and want to know more, where do you go to get the facts? Do you go to the person who was all the way across town when that something happened? Of course not. How reliable or valid could the information gathered from that person be? Not at all. So where do you go? I guarantee that most of you go to those who have witnessed that something or, even better, to those INVOLVED.
Now, think about what you are doing now as you read this blog. If you are reading this, all of you have obviously heard about the Mormon religion. So ask yourself, who are you currently going to for the facts? Who are you asking about the Mormon faith? The author of this blog? Someone who is clearly holding a grudge and being swayed by their emotions, or maybe even someone who has just been manipulated by someone else–just as they are currently trying to do to you. Don’t let them do it. Don’t take the word of the person from the other side of town. Ask the witnesses–those who have truly gotten to know a Mormon and watched the way that they live. Or, better yet, ask the Mormons themselves! Who would know better what Mormons believe than a Mormon?
Chances are, some of you are already so set in your ideas about Mormons that you will blow off this comment and continue taking the word of this blog–one among many that has not checked its facts with a reliable source. However, I believe that there are a few of you who are proud enough of your ability to think for yourselves that you will take it upon yourself to find the truth. Some of you will realize that the thoughts you have about the Mormon religion that are based off of things like “South Park” and this blog truly have nothing to go off of. You are entitled to an opinion, yes. But let it truly be YOUR opinion–not based off of another’s opinion, but off of the facts.
As you have probably guessed, I am a Mormon. I have dealt with comments and accusations like the ones on this blog for my entire life. I do not expect any of you to suddenly turn around and accept my religion as a result of what I have said. In fact, I hope that you don’t! I have deliberately tried to leave my testimony and my emotions out of this comment because converting you to my beliefs is not my purpose. My purpose is to encourage you to think for yourselves–to not depend completely on a one-sided, biased opinion. Try another source. Here are a couple that I recommend:
lds.org
mormon.org
If you honestly take yourself and your opinions seriously, explore the other side of this. Give yourself options so that you can truly chose for yourselves. I say this not in hopes that you will agree with my beliefs, which I have not even shared, but in hopes that you will educate yourselves rather than allowing yourselves to be blindly led by someone else.
I am a Mormon, and I want to finish by telling you 5 things about myself:
#1. I have one mom–my dad’s one wife.
#2. I believe in birth control.
#3. I make mistakes, just like anyone else.
#4. I could care less if you are wearing a tie right now.
#5. Several of my best friends are black.
You have the ability to think and reason for yourself. Take advantage of it.
Goldstien,
I just have a couple questions for you, out of curiosity:
1. Where do you get your information for this blog?
2. What experience have you had with mormons in the past–have you ever even truly gotten to know ONE?
I think I already know the answers, but please… enlighten me and all of your other readers. I think it’s important to share that kind of information along with all of your other words of wisdom.
And if you insist on twisting the truth even in your answers to these simple questions, please at least make it more believable this time.
Yours Truly,
R. U. Reliable
P.S. I think not.
The ideas in this blog are not unique. These are all claims that I have heard before, and I honestly think that the author of this blog may truly believe all of this. That is fine. I can’t make the writer or any of you readers of this blog disagree with anything said on here. Free will allows everyone to believe what they choose to believe. Each and every one of you has a mind of your own. You can think and reason and form opinions and learn. Believe what you wish. BUT, I ask you, if you have that ability, are you going to waste it by simply believing what you hear on this blog? Or, are you going to question it? Think for yourself.
This blog depends so much on emotion. The author is smart! They know that the easiest way to persuade people is to target their emotions. However, just because this blog has successfully gotten to you because it has made you angry, does that make it fact? Does that make it truth? No. It doesn’t. Please, don’t allow yourself to be easily manipulated. Learn for yourself what Mormonism really is.
Now as for where you can go to get the actual facts, bear with me for a moment. When you hear about something and want to know more, where do you go to get the facts? Do you go to the person who was all the way across town when that something happened? Of course not. How reliable or valid could the information gathered from that person be? Not at all. So where do you go? I guarantee that most of you go to those who have witnessed that something or, even better, to those INVOLVED.
Now, think about what you are doing now as you read this blog. If you are reading this, all of you have obviously heard about the Mormon religion. So ask yourself, who are you currently going to for the facts? Who are you asking about the Mormon faith? The author of this blog? Someone who is clearly holding a grudge and being swayed by their emotions, or maybe even someone who has just been manipulated by someone else–just as they are currently trying to do to you. Don’t let them do it. Don’t take the word of the person from the other side of town. Ask the witnesses–those who have truly gotten to know a Mormon and watched the way that they live. Or, better yet, ask the Mormons themselves! Who would know better what Mormons believe than a Mormon?
Chances are, some of you are already so set in your ideas about Mormons that you will blow off this comment and continue taking the word of this blog–one among many that has not checked its facts with a reliable source. However, I believe that there are a few of you who are proud enough of your ability to think for yourselves that you will take it upon yourself to find the truth. Some of you will realize that the thoughts you have about the Mormon religion that are based off of things like “South Park” and this blog truly have nothing to go off of. You are entitled to an opinion, yes. But let it truly be YOUR opinion–not based off of another’s opinion, but off of the facts.
As you have probably guessed, I am a Mormon. I have dealt with comments and accusations like the ones on this blog for my entire life. I do not expect any of you to suddenly turn around and accept my religion as a result of what I have said. In fact, I hope that you don’t! I have deliberately tried to leave my testimony and my emotions out of this comment because converting you to my beliefs is not my purpose. My purpose is to encourage you to think for yourselves–to not depend completely on a one-sided, biased opinion. Try another source. Here are a couple that I recommend:
lds.org
mormon.org
If you honestly take yourself and your opinions seriously, explore the other side of this. Give yourself options so that you can truly chose for yourselves. I say this not in hopes that you will agree with my beliefs, which I have not even shared, but in hopes that you will educate yourselves rather than allowing yourselves to be blindly led by someone else.
I am a Mormon, and I want to finish by telling you 5 things about myself:
#1. I have one mom–my dad’s one wife.
#2. I believe in birth control.
#3. I make mistakes, just like anyone else.
#4. I could care less if you are wearing a tie right now.
#5. Several of my best friends are black.
You have the ability to think and reason for yourself. Take advantage of it.
This is not true, so good try! why would we do this stuff? and by the way poligamy ended in the 1800′s and that wasnt even our church it was a group of people who broke away from the church. Plus i dont live on a compound either. so dont think there is any reason to be hateful toward us, and post nasty things. Because we wouldnt do that to you. So lets not act like kindergarteners!
I truly am not wanting to sound mean, but does the church mean anything to you I really want to know. Because i see websites like this all the time, and i dont understand what everybody has against us! And P.S i have alot of black friends and for your imformation there are blacks that are members of the church!
So if you really think this is true then how about you go to the church one sunday and see for yourself
we are not hateful people!
I’m glad I found this. Its good to hear My LDS brothers and Sisters stand up for what we believe. To withstand and hopefully enlighten these peoples minds although they might mean well for their own intentions to show a light on what they think is a false religion. Its good to see faithful members stand firm in their beliefs.
@Teven –
And to see it done, for the most part, in an intelligent manner. It’s a total bummer when religious people give others the impression that we abandon all reason and logic in order to live our faith. So untrue. We are Mormons, not Morons. ☺
1) I sure hope that Nobody is okay, he/she was implying suicide.
2) This blog was a real waste of time considering the truth is in responses from people like Jacob.
3) Myself as a Mormon I feel stronger and stronger about my beliefs reading this because I know there are so many people out there trying to disapprove of what we believe. which shows me they clearly are worried that maybe, the Mormons are right.
“Nobody” was referring to the tendency of cults to result in mass suicide. However, that’s a common misconception. A cult should not be defined by that aspect alone. There are plenty of religious movements that are just as dangerous and they have nothing to do with suicide. It’s more the power of usually an individual who uses charm and savvy to woo people into a false sense of security or hope.
There’s no telling what people will do under that kind of influence. Sometimes the religion or theology behind these people is positive and truly hopeful in nature. However, it is often human nature to misinterpret or pick and choose the pieces of a religion that one agrees with while ignoring the rest. This is how we get people with their “God hates fags!” signs and the protesters outside soldiers’ funerals. This is how inquisitions and crusades happen. These actions have nothing to do with God, contrary to the belief of the people involved in them.
They have everything to do with a twisted sense of self-righteousness and a total and complete disregard for the Christ in Christian.
Hey “Godstein,” I heard that the Mormon version of Jesus Christ is a repeat sex offender, namely, a pedophile. Can you please shed some light on this lesser-known fact?
The Mormon cult are the creepiest religion I have studied. The members remind me of the movie Nights Of The Living Dead. Where they are told what to do, what to eat, Mormons spying on other Mormons. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were con men. There isn’t any proof to the Lost Tribes coming to America. The Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price are at best comic books. I am politically conservative but would never vote for a Mormon. The Mormon church tried to peddle squeaky clean Mitt Romney. The Mormons want to control America so they can make more money. They are evil.
you guys are sitting there terrorising our church.
but just take at least one minute and try to learn about what we believe .
we are christens and we believe in God and Jesus Christ!
and all you are doing is starting drama. Its people like you who make the world argue and fight.
we are Mormons and we believe what we want! So heres an idea make the world a better place and just let people believe what they want and dont worry ill pray that you will get help, and realise that you need help
god loves you (:
jess.
Ok, here’s the honest truth about Mormons: I have lived in a dominate mormon community for most of my life and can honestly say that everything written here is the truth. Yes, they say one thing and do the exact opposite and if you aren’t part of their CULT, then you are ostracized, tormented and bullied untill you either join them or leave. Eventually they will end up what is known as “jack-mormon” which is to say they only use their “church” when they need something but don’t follow a thing they say. They will go out and drink, have sex with anyone they feel will give them a thrill and dump them when they get bored. They are some of the most prideful, hateful and inconsiderate wretches I have had the displeasure of meeting. And to those Morons (mormons) who have been blindly spouting hatred towards the person who wrote this article, take a good long look in the mirror and see your true enemy.
Your “religion” is false, your book was written by a retard and your inbreeding and cultist ways are going to be your own undoing. Get a real life, open your eyes and look at the real world. Think, your favorite icon is a supposed angel by the name of Moroni, what do you get when you put the last letter first? I-Moron. Which is exactly what you idiots are. A cult of fanatics who will do anything to protect a lie.
And this is to Utah Jazz!!! specifically… You said, “You don’t see any sex scandels in our church leadership”? Bullshit. Pure and utter bullshit. I have seen it happen over and over again, in fact your bishops end up not only getting out of jail free cards, but are always promoted when they do that sick shit. Then they cover it up, just like everything else they do.
Take a look at your churches, look at thier construction, just like any “insect hive”. The roofs are way to low and give a feel of claustrophobia the moment you walk into one of those places. They are compartmentalized and labyrinthian to the point of rediculousness. So many places to hide and do thier dirty deeds in secret where no one will ever know or hear thanks in part to the sound reduction built into the walls.
I was married to a mormon who’s father was one such bishop who got away with it and many more get away with it all the time and I see it in the faces and tears of so many that it both makes me mad and rips at my heart.
Your church brings nothing but pain.
I was doing a simple project on LDS because well… I am in love with one. I just wanted to say to some of these… insane, over dramatic comments, that yes anyone has the right to believe what they want to believe, and everyone should stay within their own domain of belief. What good does it do to fight? Or to discriminate? Overall, we are all people, we all either end up burned or rotting in a grave when we die… unless you had some weird death. Emotions are all similar, the life styles we live can relate. Everything. The main cause for war on Earth is religion. Why do we still let it get to us? I don’t know if I am religious or not. I am lost on it. I was born Jewish, I love a Mormon, My cousin is gay, my aunt is a scientologist, my mom was wicken, my brother Southern Baptist, my dad is spiritual. Does ANY of that matter? Hey, guy who wrote the blog, it was good for a few laughs, but still highly disrespectful. What did it do, raise a few laughs? … Try doing something constructive. LDS, Jews, Muslims, Christians, Atheists, and so on and so forth, are all great peolple if they choose to be. We just don’t have to agree with it. As long as we accept the love from anyone. There are two emotions… two true emotions in the body Fear and Love. Choose yours.
I may not believe in god, but as far as the doctirines of the church of jesus christ of latter day saints go, i know for a fact that they are true.
1. Polygamy was against church doctirine in 1879. It was only allowed within the church because women were not allowed to do anything in America back then, and the men of the church were prosecuted to the point of death. Brigham Young (the first polygamist in the church…not Joe Smith) received ‘revelation’ that plural marriages are okay, so as to keep the women and children of the church with food and homes.
2. Not one single mormon will say that sex is only for procreation, not recreation. They only believe that sex should wait until marriage and only with your spouse.
3. No…they believe in being modest. Just because you enjoy looking like a hooker…..
4. The fourth one is true. They accept everybody, and I am proof. I go to church because it’s the simplest way for me to find out what i will be doing Thursday evenings for the Boy Scouts of America. Everytime I am there, I feel welcome though most of them (even my Bishop) know I don’t believe in God.
5. Well duh…it even says so in the bible (GEN 4:15…the footnote for ‘mark’ says made black. Until 1978, the church says that all blacks were sons of perdition by heritage, because they did not receive revelation about it. When blacks were allowed to have the Priesthood in ’78, it was because the church agreed that the people on earth today cannot be held accountable for what happened over 6,000 years ago.
If you want to disprove the church, find another way to do so, and I will guarantee that I will be here to disprove your sorry ass….
@anonymous rogue:
Yeah…it’s called Utah
If your not catholic go to the Vatican, they treat you the same way utahns treat non mormons
If your not muslim go to Iraq, they treat you the same
islams in china, the same
scientologists (i was one) anywhere, treat you the same.
Think with your brain, not your ass -_-#
You know, no one talks like this to the catholics or the baptists to the presbitairians. You only persecute us. The only thing your proving by talking like this is that we are the one true living church. If we weren’t then you wouldn’t be wasting your time by slamming us with your lies and gossip. That’s all I have to say and that all the things in this article are faults and if you knew anything about us and what we believe then you would know what really is true.
I say pretty much the same to people whoever they are, I refer you to my post on the 24th of September…..
WWYMD
Don’t feel hard done by. Don’t feel insecure in what you believe. This is a brilliant investigation into what it is to be a catholic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VABSoHYQr6k
I am sure you will all take this as yet another attack, It isn’t. The lesson here is whatever we believe on this sort of thing be it Atheism, Some form of Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism and even those of the Muslim faith. Learn to laugh, if we can’t laugh at ourselves we are sorry individuals. Don’t take yourself too seriously.
Chris
Anonymous Rogue. . .really?
Way to generalize much. You’ve obviously had a terrible experience with Mormons and, therefore, expect all Mormons are the same. And you’re far from the first person to make the “I moron” comment. Predictable.
Whomever these “Mormons” you’ve lived among are. . .they do not represent the majority and they do not represent the Church as a whole. Do you think we’re perfect? Mormons struggle with pornography addiction, alcohol, infidelity, etc. just like every single individual in this entire world. I’m so glad to see that you’re holding us to such a high standard that any time one of us screws up, it somehow means we all must be the same. What a narrow mind you have.
And what are you talking about? Promoting bishops for their behavior? Bishops don’t get promoted? This isn’t a job. They don’t get paid. And what exactly do you mean by “getting away with it.” Meaning the Church ignored it? The community ignored it? The authorities ignored it? You’re from a messed up town if any or all of those are true.
How dare you take a personal experience in your tiny little world and apply it to mine. Or anyone else’s.
I will agree with you on two things – often religious people’s mistakes are far more dangerous because they should know better and when they pretend like they don’t, they are not only choosing wrong, they are also a hypocrite. Which is worse! Also, whomever has turned to the original poster with hatred SHOULD look into the mirror. Because every single one of you is only adding fuel to the fire for people who think all Christians and, in this case, Mormons are hotheaded cultists. That is not the way to defend your beliefs. Ever.
I love watching religious/tribal behaviour
This is why I do not believe in religion. Each religion is hypocritical of the other. If one religion is correct are all other religions wrong? Just because people SAY Christianity is right…is Buddhism wrong? Are all of the Greek Myths wrong for having more than one God? It’s so retarded… Religion is just a made up story made up by humans so that they can occupy themselves for the rest of their lives.
I have tertiary syphilis.
Nice:)
I love how people who obviously have never even attended a mormon church go around talking like they know everything about it… Some mormons are really prejudiced yes, but hey, so are some catholics, muslims, Jews, and atheists! Mormons are people too, and just because there are several people who have major issues and are mormon, well, it dosen’t mean that the church teaches them to be that way. You might want to get your facts straight, right from the horse’s mouth, try looking at http://www.lds.org or http://www.mormon.org. Those sites are run by the mormon church and will give you accurate facts. Just so ya know.
Many have written: if you want to know about Mormonism, ask one. I was born fifth generation Mormon. My great-grandfather was a polygamist with three wives and thirty five children. As a Mormon, I experienced an abusive upbringing and was told a pack of lies at church. In Sunday school (dating myself here) I was taught that people who were bad in a past life are born with dark skin. Those who were good in the “pre-existence” were born “white and delightsome.” I was also taught that many scientists are servants of the devil, and that there never were any dinosaurs–the bones are fakes. Darwin was a liar in the employ of Satan, and the Catholic church was the church of Satan. These things are no longer taught in Mormon churches. Why? Because Mormon doctrine was dead wrong. I wonder what’s wrong with it now? Hatred of gay people? The man into God doctrine? Taking money from the poor to build temples and shopping malls? Hmmm.
Your Mormon upbringing, Don, was a joke. Not a funny one. Which is to say I’m not laughing at what you’ve been dragged through. I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy.
If you want the facts about Mormonism, you can ask every human being in the world that you want. Those who are members. Those who used to be members. Those who are not and never have been members. And those who have never been members but fancy they know a thing or two just because of hearsay.
It doesn’t matter. Every one of those categories includes liars and seriously misplaced individuals. A person is not perfect so, therefore, no group of persons is going to be perfect. In fact, they might even be less so for having gathered together to spread their imperfection among one another.
If you want to know about Mormonism, you ask around. You research. You keep your friggin’ eyes open and you guardedly hear both the positive and negative testimonies of members and former members. You check official websites, sanctioned by the LDS Church. You check the anti-Mormon websites that spend less time on being angry and more time on pointing out legitimate faults of the Church. Then you crosscheck those points with more official material. It’s constant back and forth.
But most of all, after all of the temporal research you can do and after hearing consistently conflicting testimonials, you pray. Sure. Laugh it up. But Mormonism is not a subject to be studied with an angry or malicious heart or even a desperate one. It is not going to help you understand what it truly exemplifies if you are TRYING to find either the right answers OR the wrong ones.
It is a characteristic; a faith, not just a loaded religion. There are Mormons who treat it as such – who ARE self-righteous and mistakenly interpret and use doctrine to judge, to hate, and to spread intolerance.
Those people are not representative of the LDS Church. They are merely individuals who choose to go to a Church that will never sanction their actions.
And once a Mormon, NOT ALWAYS a Mormon. It is not an ethnicity. If you no longer practice, then you are NOT a Mormon and you should never claim such. Because if you tell someone you’re Mormon and you’ve got a chip on your shoulder about it because of some seriously sick individuals who did things in the name of God that they never should have done in His name, then your testimony and your ability to divulge church information is negatively biased and will do more harm than good. It is religious profiling.
Don, if the facts you mentioned happened as a general rule where you came from, I don’t know who ran your corrupted and misinformed church. But it certainly wasn’t the sanctioned Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And it most definitely was not Jesus.
A note; I was Born in Utah, raised LDS, and I’ve attended sacrament around the country. I have been knowingly lied to, abused, and scoffed at for asking questions during Sunday School.
On polygamy, yes it’s been outlawed by the church, but several Bishops and General Authorities have informed me that it is a divine concept that will be reestablished. It is still part of the doctrine, it just isn’t practiced by the mainstream church.
About sex, I seem to recall a little rhyme used by students at BYU, “Be moral…stay oral.”
David Nation- you have problems. If you have been discriminated against or treated badly, then it’s probably because of you, not your religion.
I live a secular life, and am quite open about it. I’ve been back to Utah since leaving the church, and never felt judged.
I’ve also been to Catholic communities and never felt out of place.
I spent a great deal of time in several Islamic countries while doing some research. Once again, I was not judged negatively.
All that being said, I can’t say that not a single person judged me, but they weren’t public about it, and they never let me know.
ihatemilkduds – You also, it seems, are in denial. No body being honest with themselves, can actually observe church leaders at different levels and say there is no corruption or favoritism. I’ve seen children of stake presidents commit crimes on church grounds and be found out, but never punished for it.
I have a question for any current LDS that read this:
The word of wisdom states that meat should only be used sparingly. It specifically states that times of famine and cold weather are the only times it is acceptable to consume flesh.
Why are church potlucks so meat heavy?
The question I want to ask is: why do the heavily LDS influenced laws in Utah allow the stealing of children from their biological single fathers in other states? This man lives in Virginia as does the mother and it is where the baby was born. This man went to the doctors appointments with the baby’s mother, financially supported her while pregnant, and made plans with her to raise the child, but she gave birth and gave early up her parental rights–2 days before she legally could, I might add–then, even though they were given the contact information for the father, they didn’t write it down so they didn’t have to inform him as required by law to give him time to claim his parental rights in Utah, but he did get it in time in Virginia, which declared him the legal father and ordered the baby returned but Utah decided they didn’t have to even though legally as the child was born in Virginia it has final say. So fuck any religion that thinks it’s alright to steal a baby just because the child would otherwise be raised by a single parent.
http://www.babyemmawyatt.com/OurStory.html
“Nobody” sounds like a cult leader…..I’m not mormon but seriously stop hating
why are mormons such sexual deviants ? do they have sexuall relations with all their wifes at once or do they share their wifes with their teenage children ? (technically) not insest if it isnt the Birth mother they are boffing. what if they really screw up and their wifes all divorce at once, do they all have to split the alimony check ? or do they each get enough to live off ? that I guess would be a sin against the church B’cuz then the ex-husband could no longer afford to give LOTS of money to the LDS church. maybe they go out and use a seer stone to search for buried treasure then use that money to live on after such a Divorce. Is December 23 a Holiday ? lost items and buried treasure are not the only things being buried in the “back yard”
as Smith was a Known Bugger who loved sodomy more than little peices of shiny Glass. Had he brought with him the right person required by the angel then he would have the Plates to PROVE that
Sodomy and Polygamy are OK. and we would now have laws recognizing and regulating multiple partner sodomy .
Sodomy did not become a crime in Utah until 1876
A new code was adopted in 1852 This code made no mention either of sodomy or common-law crimes, thus legalizing sodomy in the territory.
1857, a 21-year-old Mormon in Utah……..an act of bestiality with his horse. Although he was pardoned, the horse was shot.
In 1864, Frederick Jones, was arrested , but released by the court because there was no law making sodomy a crime.
In 1876, a Mormon accused of sodomy, George Naylor, was sent on a mission to Arizona to keep him separated from his sexual partner, Frank Wells.
1891, a man was acquitted of sodomy even though numerous witnesses to the act had testified in the trial.
1922, in the case of Moorehouse v. Hammond the Utah Supreme Court ruled the state did not recognize common law crimes .
There are no published cases dealing with the limits of state power to regulate sexual activity in places such as restrooms or parked cars.
the Mormon Church came out publicly in support of a major Human Rights Campaign objective, an ordinance in Salt Lake City that makes it illegal to discriminate against Sodomites
I was laughing so hard at this article because of how wrong it is and how much effort people put into trying to explain something when they could just go talk to higher reps in the church or heck, even write them a letter, I mean shoot, why go through the trouble, like this no name article writer is just trying to make himself feel better because he “disproved” or “reimagined” the LDS faith, I may be inactive but I would never go so far as to deny the church, this article is just hilarious, I mean really, Racism built into the LDS faith?! Really?! That just discredited your entire “well-written” article right there, I am most certainly not racist and have an adopted african sister, go get the REAL facts and write an article, it would be much more “impressive”.
Sincerely,
A laughing Mormon.
No Mormons are not racist, we do not believe in polygamy our “special underwear” is called garments we have them so we can stay modest .We are normal people you have no reason to hate us like Hitler hated Jews, r u like Hitler? Who ever wrote this is ignorant and prejudiced and did not do any research. We don’t drink or smoke because it is not good for your body. The person who wrote this did not read the book of Mormon that is the way you know that the church is true so if you want to know what Mormons are really like then go to mormon.org and find out.
The article itself is completely wrong. There are many comments however that explain the truth. Those in the LDS church believe in FREE AGENCY, if you don’t like us then whoop-de-do! That’s your right. However I would appreciate it if you didn’t just outright insult us. We never said that any other church was bad, and though there are some people that consider themselves active members in our church that say awful things, you can’t make them the face of all Mormonism. We don’t insult you, please give us the same courtesy.
P.S. his name is Joseph Smith. Not good ole’ Joe.
I love your website. I lived in Utah for over 20 years (yeah, I know, but it’s a long story) but before that I lived in many other parts of the country including the so-called Deep South. I have never experienced such coldness, judgmental attitudes, arrogance, self-righteousness and pure meanness as I experienced in Utah. People who visit Utah often mention how taken they are with the “friendliness” of Utahans but what they don’t realize is that this “friendliness” comes with an agenda. The purpose is to convert the “gentiles” which basically means anyone who isn’t a Mormon. These people believe they are better than anyone else and if you refuse to be suckered in to joining the cult, you will be dropped like a hot potato and ostracized. I despise them and everything they profess to hold dear, power and money.